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re: Are we really talking about a modern European country breaking apart in Civil War?

Posted on 10/10/17 at 2:44 pm to
Posted by PsychTiger
Member since Jul 2004
99618 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 2:44 pm to
quote:

It would be similar to Bavaria separating from Germany.


Or St. George separating from Baton Rouge.
Posted by 14&Counting
Eugene, OR
Member since Jul 2012
37822 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 2:45 pm to
Lot of bad blood left over from the Civil War...a LOT of bad blood....you could get locked up or worse just for speaking Catalan in Franco's Spain.
Posted by Gaspergou202
Metairie, LA
Member since Jun 2016
13514 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 2:45 pm to
This is not a 21st Century "modern" European phenomenon.

The Catalonia and others like the Basque have wanted autonomy or outright independence since the 19th Century.

They actually gained this before Franco took over and suppressed them.

We can only hope for a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution in these modern times.
Posted by NYNolaguy1
Member since May 2011
20966 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 3:28 pm to
quote:

Highly doubtful they’ll achieve true independence this go-round. They may win some concessions from Madrid, though.


The independance movement has the high ground, especially after forcibly keeping people from voting, and its not going to get any better. Majority of people under 40 want a seperation from Madrid, and them watching Madrid beating innocent people to keep them in wont help. Even further if Madrid tries to dissolve the regional parliament it's game on.

Madrid doesnt have many good options. They would have been wise to let the people vote it down on their own.
Posted by HotTakeHerald
Member since Sep 2017
129 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 3:29 pm to
quote:

Someone fill me in on Spanish socio-economics. Are the Catalonians the ones that are sick of the pro EU crap and are doing something about it?


No. Its not really like that. If anything, Catalonians are the liberals. But Spain is very unique. In virtually all of the world, the leftists were the oppressors and destructors of society during the Cold War area. Spain, who stayed out of the war and thus the US/Soviet direct sphere of influence, had the opposite. Franco was on the right and centered in Madrid.

It has more to do with economics. Catalonia just has better economic resources. It would be something like the German economy tanking and West Germany wanting independence from East Germany since East Germany is a net dead-weight. So in that way, they are against federalism, which is similar to being against EU globalism.
Posted by NYNolaguy1
Member since May 2011
20966 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 3:31 pm to
quote:

It would be similar to Bavaria separating from Germany.


Thats only true because Bavaria was only fairly recently "German". There was at one point Prussia, Bavaria, etc.

However I think the divide is much bigger between Barcelona and Madrid than Berlin and Munich.
This post was edited on 10/10/17 at 3:32 pm
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48677 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 3:31 pm to
Who is the best Civil War general that nobody has ever heard of? I say it's General Phineas Crabapple.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
127204 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 3:32 pm to
Scotland has been pushing for independence from Great Britain recently but the issue goes back many centuries.


Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 3:40 pm to
quote:

Lot of bad blood left over from the Civil War...a LOT of bad blood....you could get locked up or worse just for speaking Catalan in Franco's Spain.


Some friends of ours sent me a copy PBS’ recent masterpiece Charles III. Silly at times. But in keeping with what I learnt (learned) of our allies, friends, and cousins in God’s kingdom.

I recommend it.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
67274 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 3:45 pm to
The Catalons are pro-eu like Scotland. Catalonia is the wealthiest region in the country and home to Barcelona, one of the biggest tourism attractions in Europe. Since all EU countries use the same currency, are at peace, and can trade and travel freely with one-another, the risk of partition simply isn’t there anymore. Before, regions that didn't like each other might band together into larger nation states for protection and for better access to markets, but now those concerns are largely gone thanks to NATO and the Eurozone. Look for more decentralization of the great nation states, like Germany and Italy especially, in coming years while a simultaneous movement looks to turn Europe from simply an economic union to a federal sovereign. In fact, last decade, Europe nearly voted in favor a referendum to establish a constitutional government, but Germany, France, and Italy rejected it by narrow margins, and England by a wider margin. With Brexit and rising support for a central government to deal with issues like fiscal policy and immigration, there is a really good chance the European Union could become something resembling a United States of Europe in the next 10 years.
This post was edited on 10/10/17 at 3:59 pm
Posted by narddogg81
Vancouver
Member since Jan 2012
19730 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:15 pm to
This has been brewing since the 1700s
Posted by SCLibertarian
Conway, South Carolina
Member since Aug 2013
36392 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:21 pm to
If the Scots actually believed in freedom they'd vote to leave the UK and remain outside the EU. Instead they want to leave the UK largely based on wars that occurred hundreds of years ago but throw their lot in with the EU, a bureaucratic monstrosity whose primary power lies in Germany, a country at war with Scotland less than 8 decades ago.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
67274 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:23 pm to
They want to leave the UK and stay with the EU so they can maintain the Eurozone free trade, have greater control over their oil reserves, and institute a more robust welfare state. Also, the EU isn't run in Germany, but in Belgium. Germany is just the country that most often uses its banks to bailout dysfunctional countries like Greece.
Posted by CelticDog
Member since Apr 2015
42867 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:31 pm to
Nah.
Language. Catalon.


Czechs and Slovakia split peacefully.
Posted by cokebottleag
I’m a Santos Republican
Member since Aug 2011
24028 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:46 pm to
quote:

Separate language


Is it really though? Or is it just a dialect?

It pretty much just seems like Spanish with some flavor to me.
Posted by TheIrishFro
Member since Aug 2010
4709 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:46 pm to
(no message)
This post was edited on 8/13/19 at 6:43 pm
Posted by TheIrishFro
Member since Aug 2010
4709 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:50 pm to
(no message)
This post was edited on 8/13/19 at 6:44 pm
Posted by NYNolaguy1
Member since May 2011
20966 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:51 pm to
Its about slightly closer than Portugese and Spanish.
Posted by cokebottleag
I’m a Santos Republican
Member since Aug 2011
24028 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 4:53 pm to
The only reason they feel comfortable in demanding independence is because of the relative peace of the past hundred years in Europe. After World War II and the Cold War have ended, they don't feel like there would be any danger for such a small, rich area to break away. They want to be independent and let the larger countries of Europe and America subsidize their defense so they can live like kings on the extra money.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36537 posts
Posted on 10/10/17 at 5:00 pm to
quote:

Is it really though? Or is it just a dialect?



Do you consider any of the Romance languages separate then? Catalan and Spanish do not have intelligibility, and a person who is fluent in Spanish would not understand Catalan. Those languages are under the larger Ibero-Romance language tree, but these are distinct from one another, and each has a different history.

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