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Why Did The Western Die as a Genre?

Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:20 pm
Posted by Jack Ruby
Member since Apr 2014
23827 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:20 pm
The genre as a whole had so many great themes and made for such compelling storytelling.

Just take Logan... It's essentially a western in the vein of Josie Wales, Unforgiving, an obviously Shane, but why do actual old time westerns mostly fail commercially now?


This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 6:21 pm
Posted by BigAppleTiger
New York City
Member since Dec 2008
10538 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:23 pm to
It hasn't died as a genre.. see the Hateful 8, Django Unchained, True Grit remake, 310 to Yuma etc. It's popularity has just dimmed in recent decades and replaced by other genre's for the moment. It will be around again.

ETA: It is too enduring of an American genre to die away. It will re-invented, updated, and made fresh for current tastes. See Cowboys and Aliens, Westworld, etc.
This post was edited on 4/1/17 at 6:44 pm
Posted by dawgdayafternoon
Jacksonville, GA
Member since Jul 2011
21950 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:41 pm to
Because, by today's standards, it won't sell unless it has super heroes or is based on a comic book.
Posted by Fewer Kilometers
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2007
36534 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:44 pm to
The advancement in travel and film technology meant that studios no longer had to rely on affordable, locally shot, Westerns as their go-to fantasy/historical genre.

Changes in social norms made the slaughter of Native Americans less attractive as a film backdrop.

The White Hats vs Black Hats good vs evil no longer played in a society that was exploring every shade of grey.
Posted by Kafka
I am the moral conscience of TD
Member since Jul 2007
145454 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 6:59 pm to
Many reasons:

1. Overexposure. In 1959 25% of all prime time network programs were westerns.

2. The increasing urbanization of American culture. The western is a rural/small town genre.

And I mean urbanization in every sense. While blacks were present in the old west, as settlers, cowboys, outlaws, and even lawmen (Bass Reeves), their impact was generally marginal. The modern American culture that has 13% of the population dominating TV, movies, and music has no use for it.

3. Politics. Liberal sentimentality about Indians has made it nearly impossible to portray them as villains.

In a more general sense, SJW Political Correctness attacks any celebration of American history. The western celebrates the taming and settling of a savage land -- er, I mean glorifies Eurocentric genocide against indigenous peoples and rape of the environment.

If for some reason you still like westerns even though they're clearly only for jingoistic racists, check out my TV western thread
Posted by Decisions
Member since Mar 2015
1514 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:02 pm to
They didn't die, they just went through a fad where they had an unsustainably high market share similar to that of the superhero movies now.

The market got saturated by loads of low quality stuff as studios tried to get in on the money train, and demand dropped back to normal levels.
Posted by Brosef Stalin
Member since Dec 2011
39854 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 7:09 pm to
There aren't enough new samurai movies for them to rip off.
Posted by mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Member since Nov 2015
36369 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 8:22 pm to
quote:

As superheroes, sequels, and international appeal influence Hollywood studios, films from the frontier are riding off into the sunset—just when America needs them most.

Westerns have earned their place at the heart of the national culture and American iconography abroad because they've provided a reliable vehicle for filmmakers to explore thorny issues of American history and character.

Through the past century of Western movies, we can trace America's self-image as it evolved from a rough-and-tumble but morally confident outsider in world affairs to an all-powerful sheriff with a guilty conscience

After World War I and leading into World War II, Hollywood specialized in tales of heroes taking the good fight to savage enemies and saving defenseless settlements in the process.

In the Great Depression especially, as capitalism and American exceptionalism came under question, the cowboy hero was often mistaken for a criminal and forced to prove his own worthiness--which he inevitably did. Over the '50s, '60s, and '70s however, as America enforced its dominion over half the planet with a long series of coups, assassinations, and increasingly dubious wars, the figure of the cowboy grew darker and more complicated.

If you love Westerns, most of your favorites are probably from this era--Shane, The Searchers, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, McCabe & Mrs. Miller, the spaghetti westerns, etc. By the height of the Vietnam protest era, cowboys were antiheroes as often as they were heroes.


Why the Western matters
Posted by Lsupimp
Ersatz Amerika-97.6% phony & fake
Member since Nov 2003
81336 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 9:09 pm to
It's just not as culturally relevant because of the passage of time. The Old West was alive in the popular imagination for children even through the 1970s. And that chapter of history no longer resonates with children and they don't know all the cinematic archetypes or references. And those masculine themes aren't what Millennial audiences want. So we are more likely to see it approached from a post- modern prospective where the audience has rejected the archetypes that made the Western a staple through the 70s.
Posted by Kafka
I am the moral conscience of TD
Member since Jul 2007
145454 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 9:35 pm to
One of my favorite passages in a novel, the barracks card game in From Here To Eternity by James Jones. (My favorite passage in the passage I bolded)

-----

"I get my cards," he said and handed Prew the book. "Man, I feel good. I been readin' Tom Mix and the Ralston Straight Shooters. Pow! Pow!" he said, jabbing a forefinger and cocked thumb at the jockstraps and special duty men scattered around on their bunks. "Straight Shooters always win and a nuther thousand yowling redskins bit the dust."

"The Mystery of the Haunted Ranchhouse, starring Tom Mix," Prew read.

"This aint the Ralston Straight Shooters. The Ralston Straight Shooters is an ad."

"So whats the difference? I use to be a Junior G Man onct. It's the same difference. Me and J Edgar was like that. Them drawings really look like old Tom, don't they?"

"I wonder what happened to him? You never see him any more."

"His horse died," Maggio said, "and he had to retire."

'Tony," Readall Treadwell said, coming in from the latrine, a towel wrapped around his big, fat, but heavily muscled under the fat, belly with its navel like a dimple and the hair on it thick enough to comb. "His name was Tony."

"Remember Buck Jones's horse Silver?" Prew said. "There was a real horse."

"Yes, man," Maggio said. "Between Buck and his horse they had the two biggest chests in creation.

"He was a deep sea diver," Readall Treadwell said, sitting down, "before he got in the movies. I read it in a movie magazine. Our Lucky Stars, it was."

"He was a sailor," Maggio said scornfully. "You don't want to believe the crap in them magazines. It's propaganda. He was a sailor and he bummed around some, like Jack London."

"Well anyway," Readall Treadwell said, "when Buck Jones hit them they stayed hit. Deal me in."

"Don't get my goddam blanket wet," Maggio said, "or I'll hit you so you'll stay hit."

"Remember Bob Steele?" Prew said, as Reedy moved to put a paper under him. "He was the one could hit. He was a natural hooker. He was good to watch when he fought, you could tell he been a fighter."

"I seen him in Mice and Men," Maggio said. "He was Curly, the boss's brother-in-law. Boy, he was a mean son of a bitch in that one.

"But he was a good guy in his own pictures though," Readall Treadwell said.

"Sure he was, you jerk," Maggio said disgustedly. "You don't think he'd be the villain when he was the star, do you? I wonder," he said, "what ever happened to old Hoot Gibson? I can just barely remember him. My god, he had grey hair when I was just a kid."

"I think he's dead now," Prew said.

"Jesus," Maggio said. "I wish I had some popcorn."

"Me too," Prew said. "I been wantin' some the last ten minutes." "They got a machine over to the Main PX," Readall Treadwell said hopefully.

"We're broke," Maggio said.

"So'm I," Treadwell said. "If that's what you mean."

"I use to go regular," Maggio said, "every Sataday afternoon and eat popcorn. "Remember Johnny Mack Brown?" Had a southern accent?" Prew said. "And a rawhide hatcord? Let his hat hang down his back half the time?"

"Thats the one," Maggio said. "I wonder what ever happened to him? You never see him any more either."

"You said it a while ago," Prew said, laying down his hand.

"They die. Or graduate. Or retire. What do you say we talk about something else?"

"We gettin' old, men," said Angelo Maggio, aged nineteen and a half. 'T never realized it."

"Tom Tyler," Readall Treadwell said. "He was another one."

"I never liked him," Maggio said. "Too handsome. But I remember him. He plays villains now, in the Technicolor ones. The western epics."

"Sagas," Prew said. "They call them sagas.

"All the regular cowboys got to be musicians now," Prew said. "Musicians first and cowboys second. Because they're not Westerns anymore, they're Musicals," he said, suddenly surprisedly realizing sadly that he had watched and been a part of a phase of America that was dying just as surely as the Plains Indians Wars that gave it birth had died, had watched and been a part of it all this time, without ever knowing it for what it was, or that it was dying.

"You mean Gene Autry," Maggio said. "Roy Rogers and his horse Trigger."

"I read Gene Autry was a Eagle Scout when he was a kid," Readall Treadwell said.

"I believe that," Maggio said. "My hometown, the ony ones ever got to be Eagle Scouts was the preachers' sons and the schoolteachers' sons. I was a Second Class onct myself, till they kicked me out of the Troop for gettin' in a fight with the Assistant Scout Master."

"Gene Autry can't play 'Come to Jesus' in whole notes," Prew said, argumentatively. "Neither one of them can. You can't commercialize that kind of music without killing it."

"Don't look at me," Maggio said. "I don't like them either. You can't commercialize anything without killing it. Look at the radio.."

"But those guys," Prew said irritably, because this was a thing of great importance to him, and because he was trying hard to explain it, to find the word for this that always made him angry, "those guys. They're imitation," he said, finally, lamely.

"John Wayne was another good one," Readall Treadwell said, almost a hunger in his voice, when they stopped laughing.

"Not any more," Maggio said. "He's graduated into Adventure. Give him five more years he'll move up into Drama." "That's the same way Gary Cooper started," Readall Treadwell said. "He really use to be a real cowboy once."

"You can't compare Gary Cooper to John Wayne," Maggio protested.

"I ain't comparing them. All I said was they both started out in Westerns. You can't compare none of them to Gary Cooper."

"I guess not," Maggio said. "I hope not. Gary Cooper goes deeper than just plain adventure. If they's anybody shows all the things this country stands for it's Gary Cooper."

"That's what Hedda Hopper says," Readall Treadwell nodded.

"Hedda Hopper, my arse," Maggio said heatedly. "If I like Gary Cooper it's my business. And it's in spite of Hedda Hopper, not because of Hedda Hopper. Even my old daddy likes Gary Cooper. He go to see him every time he's on, even if it's raining, and he can't speak ten words a English."

"All right," Readall Treadwell said, good naturedly with the strong fat man's unrufflability, and with none of the weak fat man's malice that is the worst malice there is except a woman's malice, Prew thought, a world of difference between fat Reedy and fat Willard, "all right. I jist mention it."

"Well don't mention it," Maggio said.

"All right," Readall Treadwell grinned. "You don't care if I read her column, do you, Angelo? You wont beat me up if I read it will you?"

Maggio grinned, then laughed, the fiery Italian anger gone as quick as it had come. "Sure," he said, "I'll beat you up. You think you'd stand a chance with me? I keep a sawed off pool cue in my wall locker just for guys like you."

"All right," Prew said, "beat him up later. Right now, deal the cards."
Posted by biglego
Ask your mom where I been
Member since Nov 2007
77877 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 10:47 pm to
I'm almost 40 and none of my friends love westerns. Probably the same reason I don't. They all mostly look the same and sound the same. There's a saloon, a desert landscape, the usual cowboy garb and usual cowboy guns. There's the constant sound of horses clomping through the same looking towns.

Of course the stories vary and some westerns are great but the genre, in similar fashion to mob movies, can seem repetitive and tired to casual audiences.
Posted by SEClint
New Orleans, LA/Portland, OR
Member since Nov 2006
48786 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 10:58 pm to
westerns have evolved.


Breaking bad is a modern western.
Posted by AbuTheMonkey
Chicago, IL
Member since May 2014
8099 posts
Posted on 4/1/17 at 11:53 pm to
quote:

The genre as a whole had so many great themes and made for such compelling storytelling.

Just take Logan... It's essentially a western in the vein of Josie Wales, Unforgiving, an obviously Shane, but why do actual old time westerns mostly fail commercially now?


I wouldn't agree with that premise in the first place. Quite a few of the very best movies made in the last decade are Westerns in almost every sense of the word:

No Country For Old Men
There Will Be Blood
The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford
True Grit (Coen brothers version)
The Revenant
Hell or High Water
3:10 to Yuma (remake)
Django Unchained
Bone Tomahawk

That's not including one of the better HBO shows that was made in the same period in Deadwood. That 2005 or so to 2017 Western period is a whole hell of a lot better than the previous twelve years or so.
Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 4/2/17 at 12:11 am to
Hollywood doesn't know how to make movies about real men who know a woman's place and don't suck dicks on the side.
Posted by Tigerstark
Parts unknown
Member since Aug 2011
6215 posts
Posted on 4/2/17 at 8:06 am to
Pretty sure they explain this in simple terms in toy story 2.
Posted by Marciano1
Marksville, LA
Member since Jun 2009
18781 posts
Posted on 4/2/17 at 8:30 am to
We're just in a different era....the sorry comic/remake era.
Posted by LSUFanMizeWay
Picayune MS
Member since Sep 2014
5855 posts
Posted on 4/2/17 at 1:07 pm to
It hasn't, just different
Posted by Rockbrc
Attic
Member since Nov 2015
8161 posts
Posted on 4/2/17 at 1:39 pm to
Ran outta Indians
Posted by Miganey
Austin, Tx
Member since Feb 2013
3708 posts
Posted on 4/2/17 at 3:08 pm to
I just thought it was the sci fi genre and space exploration that knocked westerns off the pedestal. Toy story kinda gives you an idea of what I mean. Sherrif Woody wasn't the in thing when Buzz Lightyear came around
Posted by Ash Williams
South of i-10
Member since May 2009
18269 posts
Posted on 4/2/17 at 3:13 pm to
You obviously didn't see Cowboys and Aliens. It was a huge hit.
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