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re: Why don't we hear more about the Russians helping to end WWII in the Pacific?
Posted on 5/31/16 at 12:41 pm to TigerDeacon
Posted on 5/31/16 at 12:41 pm to TigerDeacon
quote:
And we had the bomb, the materiel and a completely intact country. Don't forget, superior air power as well. We had large forces stationed on either side of Russia and were a major supplier to their war effort
Yeah, six more months and a puppet government in Moscow. Boom no iron curtain and no cold war.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 12:44 pm to Ace Midnight
Not enough is said about the supplies we went to the Russians. I had a friend that worked on the "pipeline" thru Iran? I think. Said it was a continuous column of supplies for months, 24/7. An unbelievable amount of essentially everything they needed.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 12:49 pm to Emteein
quote:The Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact, also known as the Japanese–Soviet Non-aggression Pact, signed on April 13, 1941, gave Japan the freedom of bombing the U.S. at Pearl Harbor in December, 1941 and allowed Japan to conduct their Pacific war without having to worry about Russia starting a second front against them in Asia.
I feel that most of the teachings on the war in the pacific and even discussions on this board tend to gloss over the Russians contribution to ending the war in the Pacific.
So, in that regard, Russia helped Japan bomb Pearl Harbor.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 12:58 pm to Emteein
quote:
I just read about the Russians sweeping invasion on Japanese occupied China (Manchuria) on the same day as the dropping of the 2nd atomic bomb, Aug 9, 1945. What do the OT historians think about the idea that without the Russians helping out in the Pacific, the war doesn't come to as abrupt end, possibly dragging on for months or even years? or possibly forcing us to use more Atomic bombs?
The Russians sweeping through china was nothing more than a land grab by Stalin. Russia was still engaging after Japan surrendered a good 2 weeks after to secure themselves more land.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 1:13 pm to LSURussian
We agreed to a lot of concussions for the Russians help including the damn Eastern Europe buffer zone. Then they jumped in with 5 seconds left.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 1:25 pm to TutHillTiger
quote:That'll teach those bastards! I hope their heads still hurt!
We agreed to a lot of concussions for the Russians
Posted on 5/31/16 at 1:34 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
They launched their offensive the same day as Fat Man (as you indicated).
But, one of the factors we considered in ending the war with the bombs (rather than firebombing until September/October) was to cut off Soviet justification for incursions into the China and Japanese spheres of influence.
All true. That said, the Japanese also had to consider two factors:
1) Often forgotten today, Marshal Zhukov handed the Japanese Kwantung Army their collective arse in Manchuria in 1939 before he was recalled to fight the Germans.
2) The Japanese knew there was no way they'd stand a chance the second time around, with no ability to maintain a standing army in Manchuria.
So it was basically a cherry on top of everything else.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 1:37 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
They did nothing to end the Pacific War except exist. They launched their offensive the same day as Fat Man (as you indicated).
I agree with this, but their existence in the war against Japan could be seen as equally as important as the atomic bombs. One way of looking at it is that Russian declaring war and then nearly immediately(61 minutes later) invading china was equivalent to a 3rd atomic bomb, a knockout blow to Japan. Surely if Russia never came along, we would have eventually finished off Japan, either by atomic bombing off the face of the earth or by invasion. Also, I don't believe this is taking anything away from what the US did in the pacific up to that point because we never would have gotten to this moment where the war would end, but we did request Russia's presence in the war with Japan.
quote:
It's a weird geopolitical question
It is surely a weird geopolitical question, if we do not ask for Russian to join in, does China become Communist? Does the Korean War still happen? Does Vietnam still happen?
Posted on 5/31/16 at 2:04 pm to Emteein
from what i remember, the Japanese had some diplomatic discussions with the Russians all the way up to the Russians attacking manchuria. The Japanese did not epect the Russians to attack.
The japanese homeland was not threatened by a russian invasion, but an American invasion. the bombs ended an Japanese hopes of a bloody war on their beaches and the US agreeing to end the war short of unconditional surrender
The japanese homeland was not threatened by a russian invasion, but an American invasion. the bombs ended an Japanese hopes of a bloody war on their beaches and the US agreeing to end the war short of unconditional surrender
Posted on 5/31/16 at 2:07 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
But, one of the factors we considered in ending the war with the bombs (rather than firebombing until September/October) was to cut off Soviet justification for incursions into the China and Japanese spheres of influence.
I can't imagine that was true. Harry and FDR loved Uncle Joe. Harry gave away Europe, turned over dissidents to be killed, and led an apology tour on behalf of his buddy Uncle Joe. The idea that Truman/Roosevelt wanted to limit Soviet influence seems like a revisionist fairy tale to me, given the other crazy concessions Truman made.
This post was edited on 5/31/16 at 2:14 pm
Posted on 5/31/16 at 2:47 pm to therick711
quote:
Harry and FDR loved Uncle Joe.
Harry absolutely didn't. Things were getting chippy even before the German surrender. They had gone south over the summer, for sure. The Russians were not living up to their (explicit or implied) obligations to restore Poland, they were acting up in their areas of occupied Germany and just generally pissing Harry S and other western leaders off. To cap it off, all the super secret fight over the German scientists (in particular the rocket scientists, but also the experts from their nuclear program, as well ), the Russians spying on the Manhattan Project and all of that made a big demonstration of the bomb's power more likely in August 1945.
Not the only factor. I think that Truman sincerely believed that dropping the bombs would shorten the war and save American and Japanese lives. I also agree with that analysis, particularly knowing what Truman knew at the time, but even with the benefit of over 70 years of hindsight. The use of the bomb to end that war, despite other factors/intentions that may have been in play, was one of the most righteous acts of mass destruction in the entire history of war - terrible, tragic and yet necessary to avoid even more suffering.
History takes the wrong example and wrong lessons from the end of that war. Restraint is not the order of the day in a general shooting war. End it - end it quickly and decisively. The more you frick around and try to save folks or avoid collateral damage, at the expense of victory and ending the conflict, the more it costs you in the long run. Not to say that you damage in a gratuitous way, but dropping those bombs and killing that roughly 1/4 million people (many women and children, by the way), saved millions of lives, period.
This post was edited on 5/31/16 at 2:49 pm
Posted on 5/31/16 at 2:52 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Harry absolutely didn't.
Ok, explain why Harry rebuffed Churchill after the "iron curtain" speech, apologized to Joe, and offered Joe the service of the USS Missouri if he wanted to come to the U.S. to offer a rebuttal speech.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 2:56 pm to TutHillTiger
quote:
We agreed to a lot of concussions for the Russians help including the damn Eastern Europe buffer zone. Then they jumped in with 5 seconds left.
True but we did ask for their assistance in defeating Japan. IMO they were probably just smart to realize that time was running out to grab more 'sphere of influence' after the bomb was dropped.
"At Yalta, Roosevelt and Churchill discussed with Stalin the conditions under which the Soviet Union would enter the war against Japan and all three agreed that, in exchange for potentially crucial Soviet participation in the Pacific theater, the Soviets would be granted a sphere of influence in Manchuria following Japan’s surrender. This included the southern portion of Sakhalin, a lease at Port Arthur (now Lüshunkou), a share in the operation of the Manchurian railroads, and the Kurile Islands. This agreement was the major concrete accomplishment of the Yalta Conference"
LINK
Posted on 5/31/16 at 2:57 pm to Emteein
quote:
if we do not ask for Russian to join in, does China become Communist?
See my earlier post that mentions the often-forgotten fights Russia had with Japan in Mongolia just before WW2. Basically Russia was supplying (and sometimes actively fighting alongside) the Chinese Communist revolutionaries during the 1930's, they weren't waiting for an invitation.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 2:59 pm to SadSouthernBuck
There is some really interesting stuff on this page about the decisions to drop the bomb, diplomatic feelers that Japan made to the Uncle Joe to help end the war, etc.
LINK
LINK
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:01 pm to H.M. Murdock
quote:
The russians served as a meat grinder, thats about it.
Tell that to the 30+ million Russian civilians that died, at a time when the total population was just over a hundred mil. That's like full-on "Red Dawn" in the US with about half the population killed or injured.
I'm as as they come but the amount of blood spilled by Russia is incomprehensible in modern terms.
This post was edited on 5/31/16 at 3:05 pm
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:04 pm to Napoleon
quote:
They didn't give two shits about manchuria, China nor Korea until we had Japan beat.
Again, see my first post in this thread. The USSR was actively involved in Manchuria during the 1930's supporting the Chinese communists there.
In fact, Marshal Zhukov beat the Japanese Army in 1939 in Mongolia in a battle that had nearly 100,000 casualties.
Posted on 5/31/16 at 3:05 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Why don't we hear more about the Russians helping to end WWII in the Pacific? by Ace Midnight
quote:
In hindsight, we should have listened to Patton and took out Russia while they were weak.
To be fair, the 3rd Army would have had trouble with 300-something divisions the Red Army had at the time.
We had an army, and they had an army. We would have hit the same buzzsaw that chewed up the finest divisions of the Wermacht and Waffen SS. Just to keep things completely in perspective.
We would have rearmed the Germans.
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