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Message
PvP in MMO's, why is it always broken?
Posted on 3/6/16 at 8:38 am
Posted on 3/6/16 at 8:38 am
I'm not talking about PvP servers, I mean those PvP unique areas. If you played Rift, Star Wars, Elder SO, etc...with "scaling" features and "Legendary armors" basically making it Gear/Weapon based versus skill based.
Why reward someone in PvP for time spent on game? If you've played it before, you know that a max level player has no shot of ever beating another max level player who is few tiers above him.
ex: max level for all, but if you play PvP enough you get boosts
Why is it so unthinkable to allow players to all be on the same level when entering a PvP instance?
How often have you entered a PvP instance and 5 guys are trying to take down one dude who is supposedly the same level as you all are? I've seen it time and time again, and see people leave PvP never to come back.
PvPers....do you only play PvP to be OP on new players? Would you have an issue if after 4 years of playing a character, a day old max level could take you out if he properly used his def and offensive skills better than you did?
Sure reward dungeons and PvE areas with better armor, but not other players.
Why reward someone in PvP for time spent on game? If you've played it before, you know that a max level player has no shot of ever beating another max level player who is few tiers above him.
ex: max level for all, but if you play PvP enough you get boosts
quote:
Rank - Title
1 - Volunteer
3 - Recruit
5 - Tyro
7 - Legionary
9 - Veteran
11 - Corporal
13 - Sergeant
15 - Lieutenant
17 - Captain
19 - Major
21 - Centurion
23 - Colonel
25 - Tribune
27 - Brigadier
29 - Prefect
31 - Praetorian
33 - Palatine
35 - August Palatine
37 - Legate
39 - General
41 - Warlord
43 - Grand Warlord
45 - Overlord
47 - Grand Overlord
49 - First Sergeant
Why is it so unthinkable to allow players to all be on the same level when entering a PvP instance?
How often have you entered a PvP instance and 5 guys are trying to take down one dude who is supposedly the same level as you all are? I've seen it time and time again, and see people leave PvP never to come back.
PvPers....do you only play PvP to be OP on new players? Would you have an issue if after 4 years of playing a character, a day old max level could take you out if he properly used his def and offensive skills better than you did?
Sure reward dungeons and PvE areas with better armor, but not other players.
Posted on 3/6/16 at 9:19 am to Kujo
Personally, I find it more unthinkable that a First Sergeant could somehow be considered a higher rank than General, Warlord, Grand Warlord, Overlord, Grand Overlord. That's just me though.
Posted on 3/6/16 at 9:22 am to Kujo
quote:
Why reward someone in PvP for time spent on game?
Because that means if you want to be good at PVP, you'll spend more time playing the game
which means more money for who people who made the game
which is always the end result
Posted on 3/6/16 at 9:37 am to Mear
quote:
Because that means if you want to be good at PVP, you'll spend more time playing the game
which means more money for who people who made the game
which is always the end result
PvP is always broken because it is connected to a revenue stream, not fairness. Guild Wars 2 came the closest to having a balanced PvP Zone, from what I've seen (and FWIW, Dark Ages of Camelot is probably the single best version, balanced by having 3, not 2, factions present).
Posted on 3/6/16 at 10:08 am to Freauxzen
quote:
PvP is always broken because it is connected to a revenue stream
I think more people would play and find it enjoyable keeping subs going longer. Otherwise you have like a minimal retention..ie 100 people try pvp...80 leave it....frick this BS
Posted on 3/6/16 at 11:27 am to Kujo
quote:
I'm not talking about PvP servers, I mean those PvP unique areas. If you played Rift, Star Wars, Elder SO, etc...with "scaling" features and "Legendary armors" basically making it Gear/Weapon based versus skill based.
Why reward someone in PvP for time spent on game? If you've played it before, you know that a max level player has no shot of ever beating another max level player who is few tiers above him.
ex: max level for all, but if you play PvP enough you get boosts
I can't stand PvP in MMOs anymore.
Just a quick example: Alterac Valley in WoW. AV was amazing for the first little while it was out. Then as the game became more popular past vanilla and a bunch of assholes started playing, the game because 100% about efficiency and no one even played PvP the way it was intended anymore. Just zerg rush the enemy base and see who could kill the boss the fastest.
Posted on 3/6/16 at 11:32 am to Kujo
quote:
I think more people would play and find it enjoyable keeping subs going longer. Otherwise you have like a minimal retention..ie 100 people try pvp...80 leave it....frick this BS
But they don't. Right now, there are enough min-maxers out there who chase grinding because it makes them "better."
Until MMOs find a way to make the grind actually fun, rather than a grind, it is what keeps subs going. The only people who will relentlessly pay for a subscription are those very people. They find the holes. They find the kinks, the game ends up balanced around grinders rather than casuals. Casual players, those who want a fair, balanced PvP environment, are not serious enough to balance a game around.
This is why every single MMO, at least the ones I played, ended up gating content, creating gates to gates (I'm looking at you LOTRO), ruining PvP, etc.
GW2 did it right by separating PvP and PvE content exclusively. Even your gear was generally separate. Over time, they closed the gap in the PvP zones, but it was still manageable to a degree.
I mean, in theory, people who play the game more should have the benefit of getting more out of it, ie loot and stuff. But this creates the rift between people who devote all their time and people who simply can't.
I actually think this is why MOBAs gained a ton of traction over the last 4-5 years. In many MOBAs, every single player in the game starts from the same level. Has access to the same gear, money, and options. It is purely skill that separates. Granted, better players are better players, but that isn't so present in something like Smite or DOTA2. (LoL at last check did give some benefits to players before the match, that's why I quite playing it).
Smite took over my MMO/PvP needs. It sucks that it isn't connected to a larger/over arching story, but it is exponentially more fair than any other PvP part of any game (even something like Halo just sucks when you don't have access to the same weaponry). I used to play MMORPGs all the time, but the lack of fair PvP, accommodations other than grinding, and just over structure-being built to siphon money out of people rather than to tell a cool story and be part of a world-pushed me far away. That's mostly WoW's theme park approaches fault, but it's the entire genre that went that direction. My hit list included everything from EQ, DAoC, Horizon, SWG, City of Heroes to Guild Wars, LOTRO, Rift, and a plethora of others I can't even remember.
Posted on 3/6/16 at 11:41 am to DrSteveBrule
quote:
Just a quick example: Alterac Valley in WoW. AV was amazing for the first little while it was out. Then as the game became more popular past vanilla and a bunch of assholes started playing, the game because 100% about efficiency and no one even played PvP the way it was intended anymore. Just zerg rush the enemy base and see who could kill the boss the fastest.
while this is true i had some fun times in AV
Posted on 3/6/16 at 12:18 pm to Kujo
quote:
How often have you entered a PvP instance and 5 guys are trying to take down one dude who is supposedly the same level as you all are? I've seen it time and time again, and see people leave PvP never to come back.
Did you ever think this might be about what skills they use and their skill as a player? The list you put down is from ESO and they are introducing a PVP server that doesn't use champion points which will balance it some.
quote:
Why is it so unthinkable to allow players to all be on the same level when entering a PvP instance?
This is supposed to put players on the same level unless you suggest all level 10s go against each other, all 11s etc.
quote:
If you played Rift, Star Wars, Elder SO, etc...with "scaling" features and "Legendary armors" basically making it Gear/Weapon based versus skill based.
Posted on 3/6/16 at 2:38 pm to Warfarer
quote:
This is supposed to put players on the same level unless you suggest all level 10s go against each other, all 11s etc.
10-15, 16-20, 21-29, 30-45, etc Tier PvP (Starwars had this)
some breakdown like this. 15's are destroying 10's, but when they hit 16, the tables turn. A 12 can beat a 15, it will just be a little harder.
Ideally, When you enter PvP...all your purple,green,gold,blue items...turn the generic white version. So no matter what level 50 armor piece you have on, it will be the same stats as everyone else's armor piece for that class.
Posted on 3/6/16 at 2:50 pm to Warfarer
quote:
Did you ever think this might be about what skills they use and their skill as a player?
It might have 15% to do with their win, but when I'm hitting someone of my class for 1,500 and the dmg meter has them using that same skill against me for 5,200.....while possible to beat him, I have to be perfect with every dodge, block, or parry.(eating up my all my stamina while he can take a few shots and brush it off)
The only thing could be consumables.(i never)
Dude drinks 10 things boosting armor, HP, etc...on top of his champion points.....he's playing the game, I guess....but if you have to use roids and better equipment....then what's the skill? "I skillfully use things to give me an advantage"? Not, I know how to counter that, I know how to block that, I know how to combo you..
Posted on 3/6/16 at 2:55 pm to Kujo
I think that if you want competitive PVP, you're playing the wrong genre. That said, even FPS games these days come standard with RPG aspects, locking equipment and guns behind a specific level or rank. It's the wrong move in my opinion.
There's a reason why games like Halo, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, and Counter Strike were as popular as they were.
There's a reason why games like Halo, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, and Counter Strike were as popular as they were.
Posted on 3/6/16 at 3:26 pm to Kujo
People like you will always find something to complain about it not being fair.
If i logged 200 hours grinding for better gear I deserve to have an edge over your lazy arse.
Gona dumb down everyones connection to the server too because its " not fair" for some people to have google fiber while others have 1MB broadband???
I played WoW from 03-05 and my most enjoyable time spent was on my 19 and 29 twink playing WSG. It's a fricking blast wrecking low levels and ungeared kids, and it's even more enjoyable hearing them complain about how unfair it is because they don't want to go grind the gear to compete.
I also played ESO PvP with Crystalized (EP), he was the first guy in the game to reach max rank. Even when He and I had the same gear and rank He outperformed me because his Laptop is so shite he basically lags around everyone and spams AOE. Talk about unfair.
Most PvP success has to do with the people on your team anyway, so trying to focus it on making everyone equal wont do a damned thing. Just like in Battlefield you always have half your a-hole team off trying to snipe instead of playing objective. It will never be truly balanced.
Just like everything else in life, you get back what you put in.
If i logged 200 hours grinding for better gear I deserve to have an edge over your lazy arse.
Gona dumb down everyones connection to the server too because its " not fair" for some people to have google fiber while others have 1MB broadband???
I played WoW from 03-05 and my most enjoyable time spent was on my 19 and 29 twink playing WSG. It's a fricking blast wrecking low levels and ungeared kids, and it's even more enjoyable hearing them complain about how unfair it is because they don't want to go grind the gear to compete.
I also played ESO PvP with Crystalized (EP), he was the first guy in the game to reach max rank. Even when He and I had the same gear and rank He outperformed me because his Laptop is so shite he basically lags around everyone and spams AOE. Talk about unfair.
Most PvP success has to do with the people on your team anyway, so trying to focus it on making everyone equal wont do a damned thing. Just like in Battlefield you always have half your a-hole team off trying to snipe instead of playing objective. It will never be truly balanced.
Just like everything else in life, you get back what you put in.
Posted on 3/6/16 at 3:52 pm to Kujo
Vanilla WoW world PvP was greatness. It was on when "alliance raiding TB" showed up in the chat
Posted on 3/7/16 at 7:00 am to DrSteveBrule
quote:
Alterac Valley in WoW
AV was amazing and it felt like a huge accomplishment when you won before the blitz became popular. The couple day long AV's were way more fun than the zergs.
There was always a group of assholes that would bitch and gripe if you stopped to kill people on the plains between the two bases. It basically became raiding an empty city.
Vanilla WoW had some good PvP, we had a group that hit up WSG in nothing but bullshite grey and green gear to look like farmers, magicians, and other dumb shite and went like 30-1 one night only losing 3-2 to a team that was decked out in BWL gear. Seemed like as the expansions came the gear scaled more for the raids to make a huge gap at top level.
Posted on 3/7/16 at 11:44 am to BulldogXero
quote:
There's a reason why games like Halo, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, and Counter Strike were as popular as they were.
yeah, but as far as I know, you don't have specialties do you?
Everyone is just a gun slinging soldier and it's who gets the good gun on the map first.
Get a mathematician, figure out some algorithm that takes into account AOE dps vs ST dps vs defensive skills/CC vs armor vs healing......balance the input/output accordingly and make that the BAR for PVP.
If people spec or use their skills poorly, then that's what dictates a 1v1 fight.
Posted on 3/7/16 at 3:08 pm to Kujo
UO had PvP right. Then made trammel.
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