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re: Officer in Eric Garner case: I never used a choke hold

Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:07 am to
Posted by Wtodd
Tampa, FL
Member since Oct 2013
67532 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:07 am to
While I'm no expert on choke holds, it certainly looked like one to me.

I think it would be in the best interest of the NYPD to do a demonstration on exactly what a choke hold is.......they can use Al as the demonstration dummy.
Posted by meauxjeaux2
watson
Member since Oct 2007
60283 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:07 am to
From the link you provided.

quote:

On Aug. 1, a New York City medical examiner determined that the cause of death in the Garner case was “homicide,” specifically the neck compressions from the Pantaleo’s chokehold and “the compression of [Garner’s] chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police,” according to spokeswoman, Julie Bolcer.


Where does it say his windpipe was crushed in this extremely vague segment?
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111801 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:07 am to
No. And every homicide by police is not negligent.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124663 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:11 am to
quote:

is the medical examiner wrong?
The medical examiner's report was bizarre, just fwiw. The pathological differences between asphyxia due to windpipe obstruction, and asphyxia d/t chest compression are totally different. Yet the medical examiner tossed them in together along with underlying asthma, coronary disease, etc, etc . . . . hell, the ME should have thrown in bad karma to make it a hat trick. Really weird report.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111801 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:12 am to
You have to split a hair pretty finely to say a chokehold wasn't used in a death where compression of the neck is one of the primary contributing factors. But the cops aren't above trying to split that hair.
Posted by baybeefeetz
Member since Sep 2009
31671 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:14 am to
Neck, windpipe, throat. All the same.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
127247 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:14 am to
quote:

Neck, windpipe, throat. All the same.

Nope.
Posted by baybeefeetz
Member since Sep 2009
31671 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:15 am to
Yeah I was being sarcastic.
Posted by baybeefeetz
Member since Sep 2009
31671 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:16 am to
When reports started to come out about the initial autopsy, the police were calling the report political. For whatever that's worth.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111801 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:18 am to
quote:

the medical examiner tossed them in together along with

This doesn't mean anything. The ME is well aware of the pathological differences between asphyxia due to neck compression and chest compression. The main difference being one is done to the neck and one is done to the chest. Listing both isnt a conflation of the pathology. It's simply noting both's role in the death.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111801 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:19 am to
The throat is everything in front of the spine. No one is arguing he compressed the spine. I'm sure if a union rep thought he could get away with that argument, he would.
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111801 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:22 am to
quote:

When reports started to come out about the initial autopsy, the police were calling the report political. For whatever that's worth.


Yes. The ME is political. The police officer's association is altruistic and unbiased.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124663 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:29 am to
quote:

Listing both isnt a conflation of the pathology. It's simply noting both's role in the death.
ORLY? Do tell.
Please.
What are typical pathological differences between the two?

For that matter, absent tracheal injury and/or cervical ecchymosis, how could the ME possibly differentiate OSA from exogenous airway occlusion?
I assume you understand importance of the question relative to the death of a massively obese man.
Posted by DelU249
Austria
Member since Dec 2010
77625 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:30 am to
It must have been the force
Posted by mmcgrath
Indianapolis
Member since Feb 2010
35509 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:31 am to
quote:

I'm on my phone. Can someone quote the NYPD policy on chokeholds?
Here it is:
quote:

Members of the New York City Police Department will NOT use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.
quote:

If a person appears to be having difficulty breathing or is otherwise demonstrating life-threatening symptoms, medical assistance will be requested immediately. The patrol supervisor will direct that alternate means to maintain custody be utilized, if appropriate.
LINK
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111801 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:32 am to
quote:

absent tracheal injury and/or cervical ecchymosis


Are those absent in this case?
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124663 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:33 am to
quote:

The ME is political
Possibly.
Having read the Garner report, the ME is either political or incompetent, or both. Either way he should do better or be shown the door.
Posted by Five0
Member since Dec 2009
11354 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:37 am to
quote:

I think the whole issue with this case is that people are looking at it immediately from the perspective of "this isn't right." I just think that's not fair minded. If you don't assume nefarious purposes or unconscious bias that works in A nefarious way, and you just ask yourself how did they arrive at this decision, you can see several avenues but which they did so.

That says nothing about the way the grand jury process worked, or the way that it should work. I'm just talking about this case. And the facts. And the law. Not a social crusade



And this wins the internet for the day.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
124663 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:38 am to
quote:

Are those absent in this case?
LINK

Now then.
Let's return to your political ME's report.
Care to answer the question as to differentiating autopsy results between obstructive vs compression asphyxia? Differences, if any, between autopsy presentations of endogenous vs atraumatic exogenous airway obstruction?
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111801 posts
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:43 am to
quote:

A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to,


Policy may need a rewrite. If it's not limited to this, what is it limited to? Once the settlement happens, it will probably get one.
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