- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
The church is dying. The killer is the government
Posted on 5/6/14 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 5/6/14 at 12:47 pm
One of the arguments that is used to defend baby murder is "I don't want to have to pay for them all their lives via welfare benefits." This line of thinking is creeping into the Conservative worldview as well as more and more conservatives are taking the "forget about social issues" approach.
The heart of the matter is that LBJ's shut up money has done a lot of harm, but no greater harm than killing the church. Think about this. 50 years ago, if you were homeless and/or hungry, you could show up at any church in any small town in the country, get a little Jesus, but really get what you needed: some food and a little bit of money from the benevolence fund.
I even remember growing up the son of a deacon in the 80s. A man came to church and he was hungry. It happened to be potluck night. He was treated like a king, and my dad asked me to sit in the back seat and he took this man to a local motel, paid for three nights and gave him a $100 bill and his business card. They found the man work the next morning.
The reality is that the government, via hundreds of welfare programs, has taken the job that the church is called to. And the church has responded by using money to build bigger, fancier buildings, "family life centers," and other extravagance. 50 years ago, a church would never think of taking out debt, now there are churches going under left and right trying to keep up with the church down the street.
And benevolence? Really? A colleague of mine who serves on a diaconate at a different church told me that one of their families was struggling with credit card debt so the church helped them out. I thought that was ridiculous. In other words, the church is just like the world, not standing out, so why bother?
The millennial generation isn't bothering. Surveys say that 88% of those between 18-30 are out of church, and 2/3 of them have no intentions of ever going. And the church is wondering where all this immorality came from - they contributed heavily to it. Time to wake up.
The heart of the matter is that LBJ's shut up money has done a lot of harm, but no greater harm than killing the church. Think about this. 50 years ago, if you were homeless and/or hungry, you could show up at any church in any small town in the country, get a little Jesus, but really get what you needed: some food and a little bit of money from the benevolence fund.
I even remember growing up the son of a deacon in the 80s. A man came to church and he was hungry. It happened to be potluck night. He was treated like a king, and my dad asked me to sit in the back seat and he took this man to a local motel, paid for three nights and gave him a $100 bill and his business card. They found the man work the next morning.
The reality is that the government, via hundreds of welfare programs, has taken the job that the church is called to. And the church has responded by using money to build bigger, fancier buildings, "family life centers," and other extravagance. 50 years ago, a church would never think of taking out debt, now there are churches going under left and right trying to keep up with the church down the street.
And benevolence? Really? A colleague of mine who serves on a diaconate at a different church told me that one of their families was struggling with credit card debt so the church helped them out. I thought that was ridiculous. In other words, the church is just like the world, not standing out, so why bother?
The millennial generation isn't bothering. Surveys say that 88% of those between 18-30 are out of church, and 2/3 of them have no intentions of ever going. And the church is wondering where all this immorality came from - they contributed heavily to it. Time to wake up.
19
Posted on 5/6/14 at 12:49 pm to anc
Yeah but me and all my Catholic friends are having lots and lots of babies.
The world will be made new, like always.
The world will be made new, like always.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 12:50 pm to anc
quote:
And the church has responded by using money to build bigger, fancier buildings, "family life centers," and other extravagance. 50 years ago, a church would never think of taking out debt, now there are churches going under left and right trying to keep up with the church down the street.
So how is this the government's fault again? Government social safety net programs are forcing churches to become more opulent? I'm missing something here.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 12:51 pm to anc
i'd wager those who receive government assistance are much more likely to be religious than affluent citizens
Posted on 5/6/14 at 1:26 pm to SlowFlowPro
Didn't Churches start most private universities in this country.
Its human nature, once we become affluent, we don't need God. When the good times are over, God seems to be in need.
Its human nature, once we become affluent, we don't need God. When the good times are over, God seems to be in need.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 1:30 pm to anc
A primary tenet of secular liberalism is replacing God with the State.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 1:39 pm to anc
quote:
Think about this. 50 years ago, if you were homeless and/or hungry, you could show up at any church in any small town in the country, get a little Jesus, but really get what you needed: some food and a little bit of money from the benevolence fund.
I know first hand that this still happens. Many churches also operate food banks and furthering education initiatives.
quote:
The reality is that the government, via hundreds of welfare programs, has taken the job that the church is called to. And the church has responded by using money to build bigger, fancier buildings
I think you are linking unrelated things here. The culture of our society has obviously entered churches, but that is not because the average church has too much money that they aren't giving to the poor.
quote:
A colleague of mine who serves on a diaconate at a different church told me that one of their families was struggling with credit card debt so the church helped them out.
I really don't understand the problem here. Was it the family's fault they were in debt? Probably. But poor life choices could have also been responsible for the circumstances in the story earlier in your post.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 1:51 pm to anc
Whatever point you were trying to make... I don't think you expressed it very well.... just saying.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:04 pm to SlowFlowPro
That, I don't think, was his fundamental point, though I agree he didn't express his point very well.
The government handouts are allowing people to sit on their azz, take the government handouts and turn them into dope, then they sell the dope or dope it up themselves without ever working, HUNGRY !! No problem for the lazy azzez, here's a thousand dollars worth of foodstamps.
His overall point, and I agree with him somewhat, is that the destitute and down trodden don't have to turn to their local churces anymore for assistance and advice, they just keep getting handouts like an addict who has rich parents who in giving their wayward son all he asks for are indeed helping to destroy his life because:
1. He has no responsibilities, because his parents take care of all his needs.
2. He has no work ethic, nor sense of pride in anything.
3. He is in a cycle that he is never going to overcome because of his parents who placate his bad life decisions.
So likewise, the government is to the people on welfare and foodstamps etc. etc.
The government are basically keeping these people from bettering themselves, by keeping them in the ole I am satisfied with these stamps and welfare check mentality, I don't need advice from anyone.
The government handouts are allowing people to sit on their azz, take the government handouts and turn them into dope, then they sell the dope or dope it up themselves without ever working, HUNGRY !! No problem for the lazy azzez, here's a thousand dollars worth of foodstamps.
His overall point, and I agree with him somewhat, is that the destitute and down trodden don't have to turn to their local churces anymore for assistance and advice, they just keep getting handouts like an addict who has rich parents who in giving their wayward son all he asks for are indeed helping to destroy his life because:
1. He has no responsibilities, because his parents take care of all his needs.
2. He has no work ethic, nor sense of pride in anything.
3. He is in a cycle that he is never going to overcome because of his parents who placate his bad life decisions.
So likewise, the government is to the people on welfare and foodstamps etc. etc.
The government are basically keeping these people from bettering themselves, by keeping them in the ole I am satisfied with these stamps and welfare check mentality, I don't need advice from anyone.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:07 pm to anc
I think what he is saying is that churches are failing to be relevant with much of the younger generation because the niches they once filled in society (social club, charity for the poor, moral authority, educator, ect) have now been filled, largely, by the federal government.
The church needs to either find a way to be relevant or be content doing what it's doing and seeing attendance plummet. I think the Catholic Church with Pope Francis is finding the best balance of both right now.
The church needs to either find a way to be relevant or be content doing what it's doing and seeing attendance plummet. I think the Catholic Church with Pope Francis is finding the best balance of both right now.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:15 pm to anc
You are going to have to look a hell of a lot further back than the LBJ administration to find the abrogation of the church's all-encompassing role in society to the state.
Try the early modern period and the centralization of political authority in sovereign states. That happened as feudalism (which is decentralized form of political authority) declined and in the wake of a century of religious war. A strong state and absolute ruler were bulwarks against the sectarian violence that erupted after the Reformation.
THANKS LUTHER
Try the early modern period and the centralization of political authority in sovereign states. That happened as feudalism (which is decentralized form of political authority) declined and in the wake of a century of religious war. A strong state and absolute ruler were bulwarks against the sectarian violence that erupted after the Reformation.
THANKS LUTHER
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:30 pm to Rex
The point i believe the OP is making is that Johnson's great society welfare state took away the principle function of the church, taking care of our fellow man when he has fallen on hard times both spiritually as well as financially. The objective of the benevolence was to instill, in the recipient, a feeling of self worth, sense of community as well as a direction in which he could be self sustaining and perhaps pay it forward once he gets back on his feet.
The government has taken away this role from the churches and covers mostly the financial needs of the recipient and provides it in such a way that the recipient has no incentive to work their way back to being self sustaining. The Christan Values of hard work, bettering oneself through education, keeping the family together have all been done away with the government welfare state.
There was a time, not so long ago, when most Americans, felt a sense of shame if they came upon hard times in their life and needed to seek outside support. They were quick to retrain and find employment and sought to repay those who had bestowed the kindness of help in their lives in some way. While you may not agree that this type of human interaction is the way God would want us to treat each other, I do. If you dont believe it is a Christian set of morals then at least think of this line of behavior amongst humans and is this the proper way for us to interact?
No one should get a permanent free ride off the backs of others. To work, sustain yourself and your family and to prosper is the natural way of humans or at least it should be.
The government has taken away this role from the churches and covers mostly the financial needs of the recipient and provides it in such a way that the recipient has no incentive to work their way back to being self sustaining. The Christan Values of hard work, bettering oneself through education, keeping the family together have all been done away with the government welfare state.
There was a time, not so long ago, when most Americans, felt a sense of shame if they came upon hard times in their life and needed to seek outside support. They were quick to retrain and find employment and sought to repay those who had bestowed the kindness of help in their lives in some way. While you may not agree that this type of human interaction is the way God would want us to treat each other, I do. If you dont believe it is a Christian set of morals then at least think of this line of behavior amongst humans and is this the proper way for us to interact?
No one should get a permanent free ride off the backs of others. To work, sustain yourself and your family and to prosper is the natural way of humans or at least it should be.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:33 pm to anc
quote:
The millennial generation isn't bothering. Surveys say that 88% of those between 18-30 are out of church, and 2/3 of them have no intentions of ever going. And the church is wondering where all this immorality came from - they contributed heavily to it. Time to wake up.
Probably for the best. It's nice to see folks realizing they don't need church/religion.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:35 pm to anc
quote:
One of the arguments that is used to defend baby murder is "I don't want to have to pay for them all their lives via welfare benefits." This line of thinking is creeping into the Conservative worldview as well as more and more conservatives are taking the "forget about social issues" approach.
Abortion was legal for thousands of years and the Church did just fine. You're full of bullshite.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:36 pm to anc
quote:
And the church has responded by using money to build bigger, fancier buildings, "family life centers," and other extravagance. 50 years ago, a church would never think of taking out debt, now there are churches going under left and right trying to keep up with the church down the street.
Shouldn't the thread title be " The church is dying. It will be ruled a suicide"
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:41 pm to SpidermanTUba
Tax the tithe, use the money for entitlements. Church is relevant again and govt spends less money.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:49 pm to anc
First of all, this is nonsense. The catholic church is still, by far, the largest charity in the world. Taken cumulatively, the largest charity in the US is the SBC and unaffiliated baptist churches. Churches are still the most significant private charities in existence.
Second, those stuck in the cycle of poverty and/or on government welfare programs are much more likely to be religious than wealthy affluent people.
This really just comes off as an attempt at personal piety by the OP.
So what? One could easily argue this is for the best. Besides, tons of people go to church for every reason but God.
Second, those stuck in the cycle of poverty and/or on government welfare programs are much more likely to be religious than wealthy affluent people.
This really just comes off as an attempt at personal piety by the OP.
quote:
The millennial generation isn't bothering. Surveys say that 88% of those between 18-30 are out of church, and 2/3 of them have no intentions of ever going. And the church is wondering where all this immorality came from - they contributed heavily to it. Time to wake up.
So what? One could easily argue this is for the best. Besides, tons of people go to church for every reason but God.
This post was edited on 5/6/14 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:50 pm to RoyMcavoy
The government has had zero to do with attendance at religious services.
Government began a safety net not to take away what churches and charities were doing, but because the numbers of homeless and jobless and destitute in the 1930s were too large for traditional charity and extended family to cover.
Thses days (last 30 years) have seen MOST (but not all) churches decline. I think this is because:
1. people think themselves too busy for regular church activities. The TRUTH is that many many folks work too much and/or spend all their extra time carting kids to various activities that are NOT religious-related.
2. selfishness, self-centeredness, and greed are where many folks are these days. They SAY they do not want to support a church regularly with their money because those "churches are crooks and pay the pastors too much, etc." The TRUTH is they want their money for hypercommercial spending on themsleves and their families. They might help out a family member from time to time but have no concept of "love your neighbor ans yourself" or do not define their neighbor as Christ did.
3. Some people leave Christian churches because they think faith is for simple folks and they are too smart or educated or realistic to be fooled by that ruse. They leave following the God of all the Universe to follow thier own gods, money, fame, personal liberty, etc.
I am thankful I found in Baton Rouge a church that focuses on worhsipping God and serving the community. And that church is full of people 15-35 as well as all age groups.
Government began a safety net not to take away what churches and charities were doing, but because the numbers of homeless and jobless and destitute in the 1930s were too large for traditional charity and extended family to cover.
Thses days (last 30 years) have seen MOST (but not all) churches decline. I think this is because:
1. people think themselves too busy for regular church activities. The TRUTH is that many many folks work too much and/or spend all their extra time carting kids to various activities that are NOT religious-related.
2. selfishness, self-centeredness, and greed are where many folks are these days. They SAY they do not want to support a church regularly with their money because those "churches are crooks and pay the pastors too much, etc." The TRUTH is they want their money for hypercommercial spending on themsleves and their families. They might help out a family member from time to time but have no concept of "love your neighbor ans yourself" or do not define their neighbor as Christ did.
3. Some people leave Christian churches because they think faith is for simple folks and they are too smart or educated or realistic to be fooled by that ruse. They leave following the God of all the Universe to follow thier own gods, money, fame, personal liberty, etc.
I am thankful I found in Baton Rouge a church that focuses on worhsipping God and serving the community. And that church is full of people 15-35 as well as all age groups.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:56 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
So what? One could easily argue this is for the best. Besides, tons of people go to church for every reason but God.
This. Rather than having 90% of a generation attending church with the vast majority of them attending out of a sense of obligation or for "style points", only 20% are going now. Those that are going are going because they feel a personal connection with God, i.e. the right reasons.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 2:58 pm to GeorgeWest
quote:
1. people think themselves too busy for regular church activities. The TRUTH is that many many folks work too much and/or spend all their extra time carting kids to various activities that are NOT religious-related.
2. selfishness, self-centeredness, and greed are where many folks are these days. They SAY they do not want to support a church regularly with their money because those "churches are crooks and pay the pastors too much, etc." The TRUTH is they want their money for hypercommercial spending on themsleves and their families. They might help out a family member from time to time but have no concept of "love your neighbor ans yourself" or do not define their neighbor as Christ did.
3. Some people leave Christian churches because they think faith is for simple folks and they are too smart or educated or realistic to be fooled by that ruse. They leave following the God of all the Universe to follow thier own gods, money, fame, personal liberty, etc.
jeez. Are you proposing that people won't commit acts of kindness if they don't go to church? Or that people that don't go to church are more selfish than those that do? You can't possibly be serious.
Page 1 of 7
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News