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Science, Race, Homosexuality, Abortion, and Religion

Posted on 2/10/14 at 10:28 am
Posted by AlaTiger
America
Member since Aug 2006
21163 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 10:28 am
This is long. Don't read it.

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for "Race." There is only the human race and everything else is a social or cultural construct. Yet, we revolve our entire lives and orchestrate public policy around the concept of "Race" with absolutely no scientific support for "Race" as anything other than something that we have come up with to rank or differentiate people for purposes of power. The science that tells us that we are all the same is ignored.

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for homosexual identities being something inborn. We go off of the testimony of gay people that they were born that way and they have no choice. Yet, there is no proof of that from science at all. The human genome has been mapped and there is no "gay" gene. There is homosexual behavior, obviously, but there is no proof of homosexual identity as in the idea that people are inherently born that way. We take the word of homosexuals on that as they assert their own identity. The result is that society is not completely altering itself to accommodate their assertion. Science has no bearing on any of this.

Science now tells us that a fetus/baby at 12 weeks is not a blob of tissue. It is a human being. At 20 weeks, it is developed at an astonishing rate. Babies can survive outside the womb at 24 weeks. Science is clear on this. Still, the only countries that allow for abortion after 20 weeks are China, North Korea, the United States, and Canada. In France, you cannot have an abortion after 12 weeks without a doctor's order that declares the mother's life to be in danger. Science is clear, but it has no affect on the debate.

Religion agrees with Science on Race (we all come from one man/woman), Homosexuality (we are not born that way, but we are all affected by beliefs, choices, and there are deviations in humanity), and Abortion (human life exists in the womb). Yet, Religion is considered to be irrelevant in these discussions even though Race is a social/cultural construct, Homosexuality as an inborn identity is only established off of the testimony/behavior of adherents, and Abortion is illogical apart from the desires of the mother. What makes any of these issues/positions more real or valid than someone with religious belief declaring that they have a view on an issue because of that belief?

I am not saying that religious belief should dominate society because a lot of people do not believe the claims of religion (and I am talking about religious belief in general, at this point). But, at the same time, why should society be altered by unscientific beliefs/desires in regard to Race, Homosexuality, and Abortion while at the same time ignoring the convictions of people of faith? What is the difference between the ways of approaching knowledge?

Just because someone has different physical features, how does that make them different? It is a social construct rooted in nothing more than the historical attitudes and fears of people.

Just because someone says that they are gay, why should we believe their testimony? It cannot be proven. Yes, they engage in behavior that is visible and they say they would not choose it and cannot change, but how is that not the same as religious belief where people die for their faith because they cannot NOT believe in God?

Just because someone says that it is their body and they can do with it what they want, including ending their pregnancy through abortion, how does that make it so? How is that scientifically true?

It seems like we hold the claims of religion to one standard while accepting spurious claims on other issues that are contradicted by science completely. And, we do not even bat an eye over it.
This post was edited on 2/10/14 at 10:37 am
Posted by goldennugget
Hating Masks
Member since Jul 2013
24526 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 10:33 am to
I will read later, I am at work

But I won't dimsiss it because it is long like other people will
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
113744 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 10:39 am to
quote:

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for "Race." There is only the human race and everything else is a social or cultural construct.


OK. If you don't like the word 'race' then let's use the word 'breeds.'

This is a dog..




This is another dog...



Can you tell they are two different breeds of the same species? Well, I can do the same with people.
Posted by uway
Member since Sep 2004
33109 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 10:58 am to
quote:

AlaTiger


If you are a Christian, you should never be surprised at the way the world chooses darkness over truth.

After all, we believe that the world (in a much more religious time), when presented with the Truth Incarnate, tortured and crucified Him to death.

Posted by willthezombie
the graveyard
Member since Dec 2013
1546 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 11:05 am to
quote:

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for "Race." There is only the human race and everything else is a social or cultural construct. Yet, we revolve our entire lives and orchestrate public policy around the concept of "Race" with absolutely no scientific support for "Race" as anything other than something that we have come up with to rank or differentiate people for purposes of power. The science that tells us that we are all the same is ignored.


Well there is a gene for skin color, eye color, hair color, etc, but I will agree there is no biological basis for the concept of race that society labels it. African Americans and Europen Americans have >99% similarity of DNA. Race is a completely made up way of classifying people.

quote:

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for homosexual identities being something inborn. We go off of the testimony of gay people that they were born that way and they have no choice.


I agree 100% with that as long as you add there is no evidence yet. That could change but as of now there is no basis.

quote:

Science now tells us that a fetus/baby at 12 weeks is not a blob of tissue. It is a human being. At 20 weeks, it is developed at an astonishing rate. Babies can survive outside the womb at 24 weeks. Science is clear on this. Still, the only countries that allow for abortion after 20 weeks are China, North Korea, the United States, and Canada. In France, you cannot have an abortion after 12 weeks without a doctor's order that declares the mother's life to be in danger. Science is clear, but it has no affect on the debate.




agree


Posted by son of arlo
State of Innocence
Member since Sep 2013
4577 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 11:08 am to
quote:

Just because someone has different physical features, how does that make them different? It is a social construct rooted in nothing more than the historical attitudes and fears of people.


Are we talking about penises and vaginas again? It sounds too transphobic for my taste. Let's just draw a difference on whether someone has a uterus or not. You don't need a vagina to have a baby, just a uterus.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 11:39 am to
quote:

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for homosexual identities being something inborn. We go off of the testimony of gay people that they were born that way and they have no choice. Yet, there is no proof of that from science at all. The human genome has been mapped and there is no "gay" gene. There is homosexual behavior, obviously, but there is no proof of homosexual identity as in the idea that people are inherently born that way. We take the word of homosexuals on that as they assert their own identity. The result is that society is not completely altering itself to accommodate their assertion. Science has no bearing on any of this.


Well it appears that its epigenitic, which means they are "born" this way. or at least, its outside their control.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
67575 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 1:21 pm to
Uhm, there is very much so a genetic basis for race. Whether or not one conforms to the stereotypical social constructs associated with that race is largely not a product of genetics (though some are like black people having trouble swimming due to their skeletal structure or native americans being alcoholics due to their bodies' not metabolizing alcohol the same) but a product of environment.
Posted by Tigah in the ATL
Atlanta
Member since Feb 2005
27539 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 1:39 pm to
quote:

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for "Race."
That's not really true, since groups of humans can have separate DNA markers. I would say that race is an insignificant impactor of our humanity except for the power we give it socially. Race as a defining characteristic of humanity is a social construct.


quote:

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for homosexual identities being something inborn
that just isn't true. Genetic or in-utero causes have the most belief among scientists. Further, there is no known correlation of any parental or social systems to homosexuality/trans/queer behavior.

quote:

It seems like we hold the claims of religion to one standard while accepting spurious claims on other issues that are contradicted by science completely.
Not as completely as you would like apparently.
Posted by CarrolltonTiger
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2005
50291 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 2:05 pm to
quote:

everything else is a social or cultural construct.



Are you seriously claiming social and cultural constructs are without value?
Posted by Korkstand
Member since Nov 2003
28895 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 4:18 pm to
quote:

AlaTiger

Why are you presenting these social issues as if they must have either scientific or religious backing? And that if a society eschews the religious view on an issue, that it must use the scientific view? Or vice versa?

On the topic of race (and I will ignore the fact that there is a scientific and genetic basis for what we call "race", and that it is biologically real and useful to know one's genetic background), we do not "orchestrate public policy" these days simply for the fact that people are of different races... we do it in an (I think futile) attempt at righting the wrongs of our not-so-distant past (and present) in which certain races were put at a multi-generational disadvantage. There is no scientific or religious reason for it, it is purely for social and moral reasons.

On the topic of homosexuality (and, again, I will ignore your claim that there is no "gay" gene, since we are far, far away from figuring out what the entire genome does), it is of little importance whether it is a choice or whether they were born that way. The social and moral view is, if we do indeed live in a free society, then why do we have laws preventing people from doing things that do not harm others in any way, shape, or form?

On the topic of abortion, I don't think it is as clear-cut as the first two, and we have a lot to figure out as a society before we can even begin to put the issue to rest. But, again, science and religion will have little say in the discussion.

quote:

The larger point is that if you can make assertions in these areas based on social constructs or personal opinions, then how can you claim to be an objective society?

Who claims that our society is objective? Nearly every law or custom that we live by is rooted in morality, which is inherently subjective.
quote:

The answer seems to be that groups are not able to make assertions about life (e.g., Race, Homosexuality, Abortion) apart from scientific facts or what can be proven. Everything else is just speculation and the law should reflect reality, not the testimony of people or their feelings.
The law reflects the reality of our collective moral code. Science does not say that murder, rape, or theft are wrong. Religion does (well, I guess some religions say murder is ok), as does the the morality of the majority of us.

The reality is that religion is derived from a set of human morals, not the other way around, and as such most modern societies revolve around morality instead of a particular set of religious views. Science is science, and is not derived from morality, nor is morality derived from science. Science is a tool, and as such can be used to help us understand our reality and morality, because we as humans tend to want real, objective facts to back up our beliefs. Sometimes science applies, sometimes it doesn't. That is up to society to decide.
Posted by SammyTiger
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2009
69938 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 6:11 pm to
Well

1. There is a slight genetic basis of race. After all our appearance is gene centered and race is based on physical appearance

2. We don't understand the full human genome, and there are also other factors that could lead to being born gay, various environmental (that is in utero environmental not growing up with a over dominating mother) that could contribute in effect with genetics to cause someone to be born gay.

3. Religion is fine point to argue, i think there is a stronger argument against abortion based on science. But religion shouldn't be used

4. There is no religious consensus so deciding any issue on religion is inherently unfair.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46631 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 9:02 pm to
quote:

The human genome has been mapped and there is no "gay" gene.


There's no autism gene either, and yet autism almost certainly as a significant genetic component.

This idea that all genetic traits are nice and neat, single allele, punnet square types is a damning indictment of our science curriculum in this country.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46631 posts
Posted on 2/10/14 at 9:10 pm to
quote:

There is no genetic, DNA, or scientific basis for "Race."


This is also not true. Just to list a few of the thousands of examples:

The sickle-cell trait is confined almost exclusively to African-Americans.

Cystic fibrosis is confined almost exclusively to whites of northern and western European descent.

Different disease processes are more prominent in certain races. For instance, hypertension is far more prominent among Hispanics and AAs due to a genetic predisposition.

African-Americans have a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers and more readily gain muscle mass, contributing to their superior athletic ability on the whole.

People of east Asian descent are thought to more readily develop new neuronal connections with repetition of material and can thus learn more "quickly" as a group.

East Asians are also more sensitive to alcohol and are more likely to develop alcoholic liver disease.
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