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Replacing Social Welfare Programs with a Min Income Payment

Posted on 1/5/14 at 10:55 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
432419 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 10:55 am
Offering: a national/federal minimum income for all citizens of the US. an amount slightly above the poverty line, so let's say $15k per adult person (no children subsidies...at least not directly). this minimum income replaces all social programs, both direct (SS, medicaid, medicare, section 8, welfare, SNAP, Obamacare) and indirect (legislative pork/stimulus, especially within the military).

Argument: our economy does not have enough jobs for our population. this is a good sign, as it means we are essentially living in a post-scarcity world. as a society we don't all NEED to work (especially as hard as we do). and before you start calling this a lazy/hippie argument, as another person once put it: isn't this the point of societal progress?

why do we want a more efficient and progressing system if not to make our lives better/cheaper? instead of 100 people needed to farm, with technology we only need a handful to do the same job. instead of inefficient "big box" stores, we have amazon.com. instead of blockbuster, we have Netflix. instead of paying $1/minute for long distance calls from a wired phone in our kitchen, we have free long distance from a cell phone (or international calls via skype for even more savings). instead of our cars getting 10 mpg, we get 30 mpg. on and on and on and on.

how do we deal with the problem of simple lack of jobs? and technology is only going to eliminate the need for even more jobs in time. once Google's self-driving car gets going, we stand to lose 5-6M jobs in the "Driving" industry (cabs, transport trucks, car services, etc). in a decade or so after that down the road, we stand to lose 10x that once we stop buying cars as a society (if you need me to explain, i can). retail jobs are going to becoming more and more useless. hell, most retail jobs only exist due to familiarity and b/c our society wants to give people shitty jobs just to give those people something to do. you don't need to pay a clerk $10/hour to hand you cigarettes, lotto tickets, or candy when a smart vending machine can do that for much less.

yes, i know that as technology increases/expands, we will have new industries of technicians, professionals, developers, and/or coders that will arise, but these will not replace the sheer number of jobs (and most of the jobs that will be lost are currently filled by people incapable of higher-end jobs, anyway). the millinos and millions of people who are (1) unintelligent, (2) purposefully uneducated, and/or (3) unskilled will not job job opportunities in the modern economy (and it is a big problem TODAY, let alone as the economy advances and leaves these people behind).

so what options do we have? the first is a policy of emigration, which i don't mind, but is probably impractical. second we can continue to expand the growing current welfare state/system (that is going broke). third we can cut off everyone and just see what happens. fourth is a min income.

the min income allows people a subsistence living if they "opt out" of trying to fit into the system of production. this sounds ridiculous, but they're already out of it, and they aren't going to be able to fit into it down the road. they can either be subdued, forced out of the country, or starved to death/killed. there is no other option for these people. even the most libertarian-leaning person has to accept that these people will not fit into a modern/developing economy.

the min income goes to everyone, so it's not biased like current social welfare programs. the min income also does not prevent any person from opting into the producer economy. if you want to be middle class, nothing stops you. if you want to go for upper class/elite? go for it. if you want to supplement your min income by working part time at some lower-end job, go for it. the idea is that by forcing people "off the teet" of these jobs as a full time, primary income will open up economic opportunities to the current unemployed via splitting up that "full time" labor into multiple part-time opportunities. this will both allow people to "rise above" the min income, possibly give then incentives to improve their education/skills, and give MORE people "stuff to do" in the future economy.

*Note/Disclaimer: these are not my own ideas. i have just sort of started to consider them (b/c i used to think it was insane). wiki has been posting about these ideas for months now, and i suggest all of you spend 1 hour of your life listening to this podcast. it goes into details about all of these concepts in much greater, more learned details.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
37024 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:00 am to
I this is the way society is progressing. The idea of a negative income tax is very appealing to me, as ideally you would cut out lots of government bureaucracy.

I do worry about the price of goods in this situation, as government subsidies seem to inflate prices.

There are pilot programs for basic income in India, Brazil, and Nambia. I don't know yet if the Swiss have voted on it. But as technology and innovation increases, we will need less and less workers.
This post was edited on 1/5/14 at 11:01 am
Posted by CITWTT
baton rouge
Member since Sep 2005
31765 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:02 am to
Are all other entitlement programs eliminated across the board?
Posted by CherryGarciaMan
Sugar Magnolia
Member since Aug 2012
2497 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:04 am to
It will take quite a while for this idea to catch steam, be discussed, and then implemented.

By that time, the system will have crashed.
Posted by 90proofprofessional
Member since Mar 2004
24445 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:04 am to
quote:

our economy does not have enough jobs for our population. this is a good sign, as it means we are essentially living in a post-scarcity world

wait, what?

can you really say that we are truly "post-scarcity" before we have the resource capacity to accommodate an infinite population?

eta: maybe it'd be better to say "productive capacity to accommodate an infinite population"
This post was edited on 1/5/14 at 11:09 am
Posted by Zed
Member since Feb 2010
8315 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:13 am to
If this could be done for the same cost as the current system, or less, I'd be down with it. There would be less bureaucracy and less ways to pile up welfare payments.
Posted by TrueTiger
Chicken's most valuable
Member since Sep 2004
71368 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:33 am to
So no food stamps, welfare, section 8, etc., everyone gets a debit card and that's it.

If you blow it all on booze and cigarettes and starve, then that's your problem.

I'm intrigued. This could be coupled with the Fair Tax.

I'm concerned about exacerbating illegal immigration and politicians creating add ons that reward irresponsibility (booze and cigarette example).
Posted by TigerintheNO
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2004
41776 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 11:56 am to
I don't think it would work, for the reason that the people that depend on those programs the most aren't capable of budgeting. With no section 8, no food stamps they would be out of money before they pay rent/buy food.

Yesterday I was at a Winn Dixie in New Orleans that had just added 4 self check out lanes, what a clusterfrick that was. They are expecting people that can't figure out how to fed themselves without govt assistance, to be able to work a register without assistance. I ended up leaving and going to Rouses' after about 5 minutes in line. I would have left earlier but I was intrigued by this couple repeatedly trying to scan an apple.

Posted by WikiTiger
Member since Sep 2007
41055 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 12:06 pm to
I love this post, FWIW! It's right up my alley.


As for the minimum income thing....well I don't like it as a matter of philosophy, however, I begrudgingly acknowledge that it will probably be a stopgap solution while we transition to a post-scarcity society.

We will be hearing A LOT more about basic minimum income programs in the next 10 years. They will begin to be implemented in other countries before they make their way to the USA, IMO.
Posted by oklahogjr
Gold Membership
Member since Jan 2010
37161 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 1:29 pm to
I support this plan in the future however I don't think now is the correct time. I believe the path to this system however is through an increase in the minimum wage. I support an increase in the minimum wage. Long run I think it'll save us all money.
Posted by I B Freeman
Member since Oct 2009
27843 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 1:45 pm to
I am not for any program that further relieves people of responsibility to contribute to society. The proposed program may appear cheaper but how we distribute welfare should not be the question.

The question should be why should we continue to distribute welfare?

Forcing people to work to obtain their basic needs helps everybody. We should end the minimum wage now.

Liberals say we are not paying people to stay home now but that is a crock. True story---there is a twenty something guy that works for us seasonally. He came back to work a couple of weeks ago after his seasonal job played out in March.

I ask him what he had been doing the last 9 months and he replied "living with his grandmother". The guy had fathered a child last year and I ask about it and it is doing fine living with it's mother and her grandmother. I ask him how his grandmother could afford him and told me she get "all them ckecks Mr. IB".

I ask him why he came back to work and he said "I need to get out of the house ever once and while".

He does nothing to feed or house himself or his child.

It ain't right! He should have to work or get nothing and his grandmother sure shouldn't be getting enough welfare to take care of him.
Posted by deltaland
Member since Mar 2011
92711 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 2:26 pm to
I would be ok with this if and only if it didn't cost more than the current entitlement programs, all other welfare/entitlement programs were done away with (including Obamacare) and we established a more free market to provide the best possible economy and opportunities for everyone to better themselves.

I would also want minimum wage done away with in order for there to be cheap unskilled labor willing to work to add on to their "living wage" so we could build back manufacturing in the US and not be outdone by Asian countries. Free market would dictate fair enough wages for people to be willing to work for that amount.
Posted by WikiTiger
Member since Sep 2007
41055 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 2:57 pm to
quote:

SlowFlowPro


Good podcast.

Unfortunately I wasn't around to contribute much to the discussion.

I am disappointed with the lack of quality discussion this generated. You got nitpicked on the definition of post-scarcity, thrown off-topic by, and impeded by old people with no vision.

I guess it's par for the course for this board.
Posted by Tigahs
Member since Jan 2004
22836 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 3:46 pm to
Unfortunately that might be the most optimal, politically palatable solution -- though I don't think 15k/yr less all social welfare funding is sufficient to keep the masses at bay, they still out number the rich in terms of # of votes.

I've always been supportive of forced sterilization of people with too many kids they can't afford to raise -- but social mores render such a policy a pipe dream
Posted by Oyster
North Shore
Member since Feb 2009
10224 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 6:43 pm to
Interesting idea. Seems like it would create problems with low end jobs. Who would ride garbage trucks, work as janitors, work in fast food joints etc.
Posted by Sentrius
Fort Rozz
Member since Jun 2011
64757 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 7:09 pm to
I would support this if it completely eliminated the other welfare programs and there are no subsidies attached to this and it takes a 88-90 % vote of both houses of congress to raise the min income.
Posted by lsutothetop
TigerDroppings Elite
Member since Jul 2008
11323 posts
Posted on 1/5/14 at 7:43 pm to
One key issue is the cost of implementation -- I assume that this would be for all working-age population citizens.

According to the St. Louis FED, there are 243.2M Americans of working-age population. Paying each of them $10K/yr comes out to an annual bill of $2.4T. $15K/yr would be $3.6T. Is that really cheaper to administer? You've got a lot to cut out in your OP, all of which seems really sound, but without direct numbers I dunno if it's actually cheaper.

I support it even if it is more expensive (to an extent), FWIW. I'm okay with paying more in taxes, if it comes to that, knowing that it's actually going to something sensible instead of the inanity we're currently paying for.
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36129 posts
Posted on 1/6/14 at 12:05 am to
quote:

Offering: a national/federal minimum income for all citizens of the US. an amount slightly above the poverty line, so let's say $15k per adult person (no children subsidies...at least not directly). this minimum income replaces all social programs, both direct (SS, medicaid, medicare, section 8, welfare, SNAP, Obamacare) and indirect (legislative pork/stimulus, especially within the military).


Provided ObamaCare remains. If not - people with certain pre-existing conditions will wind up with a lot more than 15k a year in expenses w/o Medicaid. Hemopheliacs and HIV patients come to mind.

Posted by ahmadqb18
riverbend
Member since Jan 2014
32 posts
Posted on 1/6/14 at 8:11 am to
could you teach me fundamentals and mechanics of playing qb im willing to pay
Posted by RCDfan1950
United States
Member since Feb 2007
35852 posts
Posted on 1/6/14 at 8:45 am to
So, here is the bottom line dilemma/question, SF:

First, given that nobody wants to work to support somebody who don't...who ends up working? All the working folk on the bottom of the earning scale will just drop out to get the min subsidy...requiring more (taxes) from those on up the line. Economic death spiral. Not to mention the breach of an implied social contract wherein ALL people who get something out of the kitty...put SOMETHING in. Won't fly...for long.

Second...the Democrats are already pushing the economic EQUALITY meme; does anybody think that once entitlement-minded individuals get that paltry little old check, while the *rich* go shopping...that they will be content with that 'injustice'?

I know where you are coming from; having read the book "Abundance"...I was pretty optimistic, and realized that a new economic model is on the way. But there is a SPIRITUAL/moral dynamic to the whole economic/social mechanism. Both the Laws of Nature and the Laws of God are 'designed'/implemented to accomplish ONE thing. To create a VIABLE and positive character in the lifeforms who live under those Laws. Survival and prosperity of the FIT.

Any set of Principles/Laws/Policies which only insures survivability...but offers no promotion or guarantee of the POSTITIVE CHARACTER of the people who are subsidized/created...is a road to perdition. We'll end up being overrun by heathen. And neither Mother Nature or God will long tolerate such a scenario. There is a failsafe wrote into this design...Liberal good intentions nws.

I've never argued against charity...I support QUALIFIED charity (government subsidies). When the Progs inform their ignorant supporters/voting base of exactly what will be required from THEM, instead of accusing the responsible and productive folk of being uncharitable...then I'll get behind them. My guess is that I won't see that day, until AFTER the whole thing collapses and real vision takes hold.

Good post!
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