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re: Chris paul.. 2nd best pg ever?
Posted on 8/21/13 at 1:49 pm to TulaneTigerFan
Posted on 8/21/13 at 1:49 pm to TulaneTigerFan
quote:
This board, and most sports fans in general, is too stuck on team accomplistments (see the post regarding CP3 needing to play in a finals in order to be great)
I see your point, but don't you think that is an important piece of the equation? Especially when you are a point guard?
1
Posted on 8/21/13 at 1:52 pm to LSU Piston
Depends on what we're trying to determine. If we're discussing "best" by trying to measure which PGs had the most accomplished career then definitely, but I don't think that's the best way to go about this. If we're strictly talking about how good these guys are when they're on the court then not really. Individual quality of play doesn't always lead to team success for various reasons, and yes I think that's true even for PGs. Team success is more circumstantial
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:09 pm to Ghazi
if we are talking best ever, you have to look at it after his career will be over and people look back on it. Championships play a part somewhat, but not that much when it comes to point guards. So just looking at stats.....
I doubt CP is catching Stockton in assists or steals, and he will have to at bare minimum do what he's done his first 8 season, for the next 8 seasons to come close to catch Kidd and Gary Payton in those two categories.
Just doubling his numbers from now will leave him in 3rd place just ahead of Mark Jackson, Nash and Magic in assists, and 3rd place just in front of Jordan and Payton in steals.
He's not catching Stockton in those two, and will have a very difficult time catching Kidd, consdering how much CP gets hurt and the fact that he has no cartilage in one of his knees.
Right now it's Stockton and then Kidd, and he will have a hard time catching those two. He can somewhat easily obtain 3rd.
But.....
If he can get to 20,000 points, which is obtainable since he is already at just over 10,000, and get 10,000 assists, which only 5 players have over 10,000 assists, then, he would be the only player in history to have 20,000 points and 10,000 assists.
Stockton finished with 19,711, Magic with just over 17,000 and Kidd is somewhere just under 18,000, although Kidd is 3rd in 3 pointers made behind the two best shooters to ever play, which has got to count for something. The Big O has 27,000 points but fell just short of 10,000 assists.
Even if he gets to the 20k/10k mark i'd still put him behind Kidd.
Kidd is 2nd in assists and steals, 3rd in 3 pointers made, and 58th in rebounding which he has just about double the amount of rebounds as anyone else on top of the assists and steals records.
I doubt CP is catching Stockton in assists or steals, and he will have to at bare minimum do what he's done his first 8 season, for the next 8 seasons to come close to catch Kidd and Gary Payton in those two categories.
Just doubling his numbers from now will leave him in 3rd place just ahead of Mark Jackson, Nash and Magic in assists, and 3rd place just in front of Jordan and Payton in steals.
He's not catching Stockton in those two, and will have a very difficult time catching Kidd, consdering how much CP gets hurt and the fact that he has no cartilage in one of his knees.
Right now it's Stockton and then Kidd, and he will have a hard time catching those two. He can somewhat easily obtain 3rd.
But.....
If he can get to 20,000 points, which is obtainable since he is already at just over 10,000, and get 10,000 assists, which only 5 players have over 10,000 assists, then, he would be the only player in history to have 20,000 points and 10,000 assists.
Stockton finished with 19,711, Magic with just over 17,000 and Kidd is somewhere just under 18,000, although Kidd is 3rd in 3 pointers made behind the two best shooters to ever play, which has got to count for something. The Big O has 27,000 points but fell just short of 10,000 assists.
Even if he gets to the 20k/10k mark i'd still put him behind Kidd.
Kidd is 2nd in assists and steals, 3rd in 3 pointers made, and 58th in rebounding which he has just about double the amount of rebounds as anyone else on top of the assists and steals records.
This post was edited on 8/21/13 at 2:12 pm
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:15 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
TeddyPadillac
A lot of good info. So do you have him in the 4-5 range? I didn't see Thomas mentioned at all really in that analysis.
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:25 pm to Ghazi
Magic? Issiah ? Stockton? Kidd? West?
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:31 pm to Buckeye06
quote:
A lot of good info. So do you have him in the 4-5 range? I didn't see Thomas mentioned at all really in that analysis.
He's got a lot of work to do. If he can't win a championship, or MVP or DMVP, then he's got a realistic chance at 3rd and a lot of work to pass Kidd. He can pass Payton and Mark Jakcson probably easily.
WIll have a hard time passing Magic, Big O, Nash and Isiah when you look at their accomplishments.
It's Stockton, Kidd, Magic, Big O.
Isiah and Nash are sort of right after them. Then Mark Jackson and Gary Payton I think.
Isiah and Nash were the better scorers, Nash does have a good bit more assists, but he has played 17 seasons, while Isiah was cut short and played only 13. Isiah could have gotten better stats had he not gotten hurt, same with Big O if he would have played more, 14 season for him.
The thing Isiah and Nash lack is the defense. Neither are that high on the steals lists and the only thing Nash has going is he's 4th in assists and reached the 10,000 mark and also has 2 MVPs, and Isiah has 2 championships on a team where he was the best player, something no other PG can say (not counting 6'9" Magic, and 6'5" Big O who had Kareem, Kidd had Dirk)
Mark Jackson is behind them b/c he's 3rd in assists, but not much else, and Payton is high up b/c he's 8th in assists, 4th in steals and was the Defensive player of the year once, something no other PG has ever done.
I don't know who is 3rd, but it's clear who is 1 and 2. For CP to get 3rd, he's got to be 3rd in assists and steals, and if he can't win some award or championship, then he absolutely need to be the lone person in the 20k/10k club. that can set him apart from the guys after Stockton and Kidd. If not, then he's just somewhere in the group of Magic, Big O, Nash, Isiah, Jackson and Payton depending on where his numbers finish, mainly his assists and steals numbers.
IMO
This post was edited on 8/21/13 at 2:38 pm
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:34 pm to Buckeye06
quote:
A lot of good info. So do you have him in the 4-5 range? I didn't see Thomas mentioned at all really in that analysis.
Meh, that post was almost meaningless IMHO. Compilation stats should be completely irrelevant in this kind of analysis
eta: The guy has Mark Jackson over Paul in his next post due to total number of assists. I mean come on, seriously?
This post was edited on 8/21/13 at 2:35 pm
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:43 pm to TulaneTigerFan
quote:
eta: The guy has Mark Jackson over Paul in his next post due to total number of assists. I mean come on, seriously?
I'm not going to put CP in the discussion of where he falls right now. If he retires next year, he's no where near any of those guys. CP has to play 8-10 more years to get into the discussion of those players.
If we are talking best ever, then you have to look at their whole career. Mark Jackson has done a hell of a lot more in his career at this point than CP has so far.
That being said, yes i'd take CP over all of them except Stockton, Kidd and Isiah, not counting Magic as a PG, at this point. But to talk best ever you can only really compare career stats and accomplishments.
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:48 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
But.....
If he can get to 20,000 points, which is obtainable since he is already at just over 10,000, and get 10,000 assists, which only 5 players have over 10,000 assists, then, he would be the only player in history to have 20,000 points and 10,000 assists.
Stockton finished with 19,711, Magic with just over 17,000 and Kidd is somewhere just under 18,000, although Kidd is 3rd in 3 pointers made behind the two best shooters to ever play, which has got to count for something. The Big O has 27,000 points but fell just short of 10,000 assists.
Even if he gets to the 20k/10k mark i'd still put him behind Kidd.
Kidd is 2nd in assists and steals, 3rd in 3 pointers made, and 58th in rebounding which he has just about double the amount of rebounds as anyone else on top of the assists and steals records.
Lebron gonna finish with 30,000 points 10,000 assists and 10,000 rebounds
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:50 pm to Dr. Shultz
Has anyone mentioned Tony Parker yet? He is WAY better than CP3!
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:55 pm to lsu480
quote:
Has anyone mentioned Tony Parker yet? He is WAY better than CP3!
You can make the argument for Parker > Paul (especially with his post season stats and success).
But in no way is he WAY better
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:55 pm to lsu480
quote:Explain how Parker is ''way'' better than CP3 please.
Has anyone mentioned Tony Parker yet? He is WAY better than CP3!
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:58 pm to tgr4ever
Parker makes him his bitch in head to head matchups, Parker has lots of jewelry and when Parker wants to score he can average 30+. If he was on the teams CP3 has been on his stats would be way better than CP3s.
Posted on 8/21/13 at 2:58 pm to Dr. Shultz
quote:
Lebron gonna finish with 30,000 points 10,000 assists and 10,000 rebounds
Not a PG, and he's in his own category and we will most likely not be comparing him to anyone when it's all said in done.
and if Lebron does that, then it makes CP doing the 20K/10K a little more special.
Geez when you think about him doing 30/10/10, that might be one of the best career stats of all time in any sport. And he can easily obtain 2nd in steals all time as well, making it 30/10/10/3
Posted on 8/21/13 at 3:00 pm to Tiger1242
quote:Tony Parker post season career averages:
(especially with his post season stats
19/5/3 on 46/30/72
CP3 post season career averages:
21/10/5 on 48/33/82
Posted on 8/21/13 at 3:04 pm to lsu480
quote:
Has anyone mentioned Tony Parker yet? He is WAY better than CP3!
I can't name a single thing that Tony Parker does better than CP3 besides being the beneficiary of being on the same team with Manu, Duncan, and Pop his whole career.
CP3 is a better scorer, better passer, and better defender.
Posted on 8/21/13 at 3:05 pm to lsu480
quote:If Parker never had Popovich as his head coach he wouldn't be the player he is today .
If he was on the teams CP3 has been on his stats would be way better than CP3s.
...just saying.
Posted on 8/21/13 at 3:07 pm to Dr. Shultz
quote:
CP3 is a better scorer, better passer, and better defender.
Parker got to bang Eva Longoria in her prime so..... wash?
Posted on 8/21/13 at 3:11 pm to Tiger1242
Why are people still dignifying this troll post?
Posted on 8/21/13 at 3:12 pm to Dr. Shultz
quote:
CP3 is a better scorer, better passer, and better defender.
Definitely a better passer. CP is not a good on the ball defender, just like Parker, but CP is a very opportune defender and gets a lot of steals and is a better defender than Parker.
And i wouldn't say either is better than the other when it comes to scoring. Parker is one of the better finishers around the rim of all time when it comes to small PG's. ALthough Parker never dunked on Dwight Howard so let's just say CP is the better scorer.
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