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2
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:35 am to The Seaward
Love me some Maddux 
and re: Pedro, doesnt his 99 or 2000 season hold the record for greatest ERA+
and re: Pedro, doesnt his 99 or 2000 season hold the record for greatest ERA+
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:37 am to Moustache
I mostly agree with you.
The only thing that gives me pause is what happens when you have someone pitching half of their games in a hitter's park and someone else pitching in a pitcher's park. Not all parks are equal and could be a factor when you're talking about the best of the best...a way to split hairs.
The other thing...and I know it's extreme and again a way to split hairs with two more or less equal pitchers...how is the defense behind them? do they have a stud short stop grabbing everything up the middle? Or a Griffey Jr covering half of the outfield?
It's not going to be point in discussing a 3.00 ERA vs a 2.50 ERA. But it could be a factor when talking about a much smaller gap like with Maddux and Pedro. For the record, I have no idea what these factors look like for each pitcher. It's just a general point.
The only thing that gives me pause is what happens when you have someone pitching half of their games in a hitter's park and someone else pitching in a pitcher's park. Not all parks are equal and could be a factor when you're talking about the best of the best...a way to split hairs.
The other thing...and I know it's extreme and again a way to split hairs with two more or less equal pitchers...how is the defense behind them? do they have a stud short stop grabbing everything up the middle? Or a Griffey Jr covering half of the outfield?
It's not going to be point in discussing a 3.00 ERA vs a 2.50 ERA. But it could be a factor when talking about a much smaller gap like with Maddux and Pedro. For the record, I have no idea what these factors look like for each pitcher. It's just a general point.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:42 am to The Seaward
quote:
Pitchers typically have limited control of balls batted in play. That is why Ks are so important. Automatic out.
Understood. BUT, errors don't count against your ERA. And if you're allowing batted balls to be put into a gray zone of where it's close to being caught or it could go either way (hit/error), then you obviously didn't get the hitter out most of the time.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:43 am to LSUtoOmaha
quote:
Agreed. I don't know why strikeouts and WHIP are so important. If you allow people on base, but they don't score, it doesn't matter.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:44 am to Dave Worth
quote:
's not going to be point in discussing a 3.00 ERA vs a 2.50 ERA. But it could be a factor when talking about a much smaller gap like with Maddux and Pedro. For the record, I have no idea what these factors look like for each pitcher. It's just a general point.
Well, being as Pedro and Maddux both played for great teams, I would call the defense a wash.
AS far as hitters park goes and AL vs. NL, then I guess Pedro could possibly get the edge, but it's still not definite.
Single best season is too close to call between '95 maddux and '99 Pedro.
Career is EASILY maddux.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:44 am to genro
quote:
If Koufax's era of hitting was so bad, and that discredits his amazing statistics, wouldn't there have been other pitchers at that time doing similar things? He was still head and shoulders above everyone else.
He was a great, great pitcher and one of my personal favorites.
Just not as great as Pedro, IMO.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:46 am to Moustache
quote:
Understood. BUT, errors don't count against your ERA. And if you're allowing batted balls to be put into a gray zone of where it's close to being caught or it could go either way (hit/error), then you obviously didn't get the hitter out most of the time.
So, you don't want to adjust for shitty defenders, park dimensions, or use information such as k/bb ratio and k's/9? There's a reason ERA is kind of a shitty measure of future success. ERA+, FIP, and xFIP are all better indicators of how well the pitcher pitched.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:48 am to Moustache
quote:
Well, being as Pedro and Maddux both played for great teams, I would call the defense a wash.
The Red Sox weren't setting anything on fire defensively that year.
quote:
AS far as hitters park goes and AL vs. NL, then I guess Pedro could possibly get the edge, but it's still not definite.
quote:
Single best season is too close to call between '95 maddux and '99 Pedro.
Wow.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 9:58 am to Moustache
quote:
Well, being as Pedro and Maddux both played for great teams
The Braves were WAAAAAY better than the Red Sox were pre 2004 when Pedro was still in his prime. quote:
AS far as hitters park goes and AL vs. NL, then I guess Pedro could possibly get the edge, but it's still not definite.
How is it not definite?
Posted on 8/3/12 at 10:04 am to genro
quote:
If Koufax's era of hitting was so bad, and that discredits his amazing statistics, wouldn't there have been other pitchers at that time doing similar things? He was still head and shoulders above everyone else.
Koufax was head and shoulders above everyone else during his peak, but no where close to the level Pedro was
Pedro's ERA+ numbers during his peak:
1997: 219
1998: 163
1999: 243
2000: 291
2001: 190
2002: 202
2003: 211
Average ERA+ of 217
Koufax's best single season ERA+? 190
So Pedro's worst year during that stretch was 163 in 1998. In Kofaux's career, he only had 2 seasons better than Pedro's worst year during that stretch
This post was edited on 8/3/12 at 10:06 am
Posted on 8/3/12 at 10:31 am to PortCityTiger24
quote:
I put him behind Pedro as the 2nd best pitcher in my lifetime.
I cant tell if you are serious. But I hope you are not.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 10:35 am to Gotta have DeZeier
Serious
I'm 29. Who are your top 2?
I'm 29. Who are your top 2?
Posted on 8/3/12 at 10:42 am to Jcorye1
quote:
o, you don't want to adjust for shitty defenders, park dimensions, or use information such as k/bb ratio and k's/9? There's a reason ERA is kind of a shitty measure of future success. ERA+, FIP, and xFIP are all better indicators of how well the pitcher pitched.
So, pretty much what I gather from that is this:
Great ERA means great pitcher. BUT, if the ERA isn't as good as who I'm trying to compare to, let me make up some excuses.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 10:50 am to RLDSC FAN
quote:
it's really incredible that they only won 1 title with those teams
Posted on 8/3/12 at 10:56 am to Moustache
So Ryan Volegsong is the best pitcher in baseball right now?
Posted on 8/3/12 at 11:03 am to PortCityTiger24
quote:
Who are your top 2?
I am 25. And Greg Maddux is number 1 in my book. And its not even close.
Posted on 8/3/12 at 11:03 am to Gotta have DeZeier
So we are not very far off 
Posted on 8/3/12 at 11:21 am to The Seaward
quote:
So Ryan Volegsong is the best pitcher in baseball right now?
yeah pretty much
Posted on 8/3/12 at 11:22 am to Dave Worth
quote:
The only thing that gives me pause is what happens when you have someone pitching half of their games in a hitter's park and someone else pitching in a pitcher's park. Not all parks are equal and could be a factor when you're talking about the best of the best.
One of the dumber things in sports IMO. I can't think of a major sport where the dimensions of the field change depending on the venue. Asinine.
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