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Message
Hot take on Germany’s invasion of the USSR
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:03 pm
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:03 pm
This is long so don’t read if you aren’t interested.
I think Germany would’ve beaten Stalin and the Soviets in ‘41 or ‘42 had they made some major changes. It wouldn’t have been enough even with the US increasing shipping convoys full of steel, trucks, and munitions to the Soviets via Archangel and Murmansk. With the Soviets defeated, the Germans would’ve used their full force to push the Allies out of North Africa and England would’ve soon been invaded.
I know some of this is far fetched and against Nazi ideology so stay with me.
-Extermination of the Jews
Think of all the men, material, resources, trains, and rail line that could’ve been used for the Eastern front as a priority. Think of all the Einsatzgruppen and reserve police battalions that could’ve formed new divisions. German Jews fought for Germany in WWI. Germany could’ve conscripted them, their sons, and other Jews from occupied territories to fight against Stalin.
-Liberators instead of oppressors
Germany could’ve used that mindset during the Blitzkrieg of ‘41 and treated the conquered civilians as their liberators instead of their oppressors. A lot of these people hated the Soviets and initially welcomed the Nazis with open arms.
People generally hate their villages burnt, their women raped, their neighbors murdered, and their farmers getting looted. What if Nazis didn’t do that? This would’ve largely eliminated the partisan guerrilla style fighting that was a thorn in Germany’s side throughout the war. They could’ve turned a lot of those men against the Russians and freed up more German soldiers to send to the East. I mean the Nazis recruited Ukrainian and Latvian men to work alongside the Einsatzgruppen so why not?
Russia is spacious. There’s more than enough room for civilians from the Fatherland. The Nazis could’ve waited until Russia was conquered and then actually resettled ethnic populations east to make room for Germans.
-UBoats
Hitler could’ve built more UBoats to solidify the Atlantic, but Donitz had trouble influencing Hitler until he replaced Raeder.
-Moscow
Germany shouldn’t have attacked in winter of ‘41. Instead, the goal from the start of Barbarossa should’ve been to take the Soviet oil fields in the Caucuses and cripple the Soviets ability for mechanized warfare.
Any input?
I think Germany would’ve beaten Stalin and the Soviets in ‘41 or ‘42 had they made some major changes. It wouldn’t have been enough even with the US increasing shipping convoys full of steel, trucks, and munitions to the Soviets via Archangel and Murmansk. With the Soviets defeated, the Germans would’ve used their full force to push the Allies out of North Africa and England would’ve soon been invaded.
I know some of this is far fetched and against Nazi ideology so stay with me.
-Extermination of the Jews
Think of all the men, material, resources, trains, and rail line that could’ve been used for the Eastern front as a priority. Think of all the Einsatzgruppen and reserve police battalions that could’ve formed new divisions. German Jews fought for Germany in WWI. Germany could’ve conscripted them, their sons, and other Jews from occupied territories to fight against Stalin.
-Liberators instead of oppressors
Germany could’ve used that mindset during the Blitzkrieg of ‘41 and treated the conquered civilians as their liberators instead of their oppressors. A lot of these people hated the Soviets and initially welcomed the Nazis with open arms.
People generally hate their villages burnt, their women raped, their neighbors murdered, and their farmers getting looted. What if Nazis didn’t do that? This would’ve largely eliminated the partisan guerrilla style fighting that was a thorn in Germany’s side throughout the war. They could’ve turned a lot of those men against the Russians and freed up more German soldiers to send to the East. I mean the Nazis recruited Ukrainian and Latvian men to work alongside the Einsatzgruppen so why not?
Russia is spacious. There’s more than enough room for civilians from the Fatherland. The Nazis could’ve waited until Russia was conquered and then actually resettled ethnic populations east to make room for Germans.
-UBoats
Hitler could’ve built more UBoats to solidify the Atlantic, but Donitz had trouble influencing Hitler until he replaced Raeder.
-Moscow
Germany shouldn’t have attacked in winter of ‘41. Instead, the goal from the start of Barbarossa should’ve been to take the Soviet oil fields in the Caucuses and cripple the Soviets ability for mechanized warfare.
Any input?
28
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:11 pm to sledgehammer
A lot of “What Ifs” there.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:12 pm to sledgehammer
Even hotter take, we should not have involved ourselves in the European theater of either World War.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:14 pm to sledgehammer
A quick German victory in WWI would been the best outcome for the world
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:14 pm to sledgehammer
If memory serves, I believe the trains carrying Jews and other untermenschen had the highest priority on the rail lines....
Which is nuts....
Which is nuts....
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:15 pm to sledgehammer
The AfD came in a strong second in the snap elections today. First time a far right political party has this much support in Germany since the Nazi party.
Maybe they will take a second shot at Russia soon.
Maybe they will take a second shot at Russia soon.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:16 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
Moscow
Germany shouldn’t have attacked in winter of ‘41. Instead, the goal from the start of Barbarossa should’ve been to take the Soviet oil fields in the Caucuses and cripple the Soviets ability for mechanized warfare.
Germany's only hope was cutting off the head of the snake and leave the state unable to organize. Thank goodness Hitler was an arrogant idiot and didn't prioritize Moscow at the onset.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:20 pm to sledgehammer
A German Wehrmacht (a la WW1) using Nazi military tactics (blitzkrieg,
Etc.) could have pushed like a spear all the way to Moscow and won (at least that battle) before the winter set in.
Now, a Nazi Wehrmacht with its ideological bent screwed itself by worrying about optics (like going after Stalingrad instead of capturing Moscow.) and its purges and SS extermination wiping out populations instead of enlisting them.
I mean, you remove the ideological part of the Wehrmacht in WW2 (if that's even possible) and they are damn near unstoppable and may even have gained Allies.
But that's all alternate history shite.
Etc.) could have pushed like a spear all the way to Moscow and won (at least that battle) before the winter set in.
Now, a Nazi Wehrmacht with its ideological bent screwed itself by worrying about optics (like going after Stalingrad instead of capturing Moscow.) and its purges and SS extermination wiping out populations instead of enlisting them.
I mean, you remove the ideological part of the Wehrmacht in WW2 (if that's even possible) and they are damn near unstoppable and may even have gained Allies.
But that's all alternate history shite.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:21 pm to TigersnJeeps
Most of the Hungarian Jews died in 1944 when Germany was already on the collapse. You would think the priority would’ve been to win the war instead of killing Jews. What do I know though?
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:23 pm to sledgehammer
Germany invaded in July, but the Russian resistance was so fierce they only got to Moscow in the winter. You may be mixing up Germany with Napoleon.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:24 pm to fr33manator
quote:
But that's all alternate history shite.
Good post. That was my direction with this thread. What ifs.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:26 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
I think Germany would’ve beaten Stalin and the Soviets in ‘41 or ‘42 had they made some major changes.
I doubt it. The Soviets did what France was unwilling to do (right or wrong) and used their citizens as human speedbumps with guns. They were always going to outlast the Germans in population and resources, it was only a matter of "cost" and Stalin didn't care. Whether Moscow was actually captured or not probably didn't matter
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:29 pm to geaux2019
It was June. Russia is expansive. It took time to get to Moscow especially with pincer movements to capture whole Russian armies, rainy season, and snow melt before it turned to ice in the fall creating mud which bogged everything down.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:32 pm to sledgehammer
You’re pretty much right.
That’s how I do it in HOI4 and it works every time.
That’s how I do it in HOI4 and it works every time.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:33 pm to Bama Bird
Soviets wouldn’t have been able to accept much material through the Arctic convoy routes if Donitz’ UBoats prowled those areas more. They relied more on our stuff than you think especially in 1941.
Germany would’ve had more men if they adhered to my first and second points. A lot of these Russians hated the Stalin regime.
Germany would’ve had more men if they adhered to my first and second points. A lot of these Russians hated the Stalin regime.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:33 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
Any input?
You’re not well-read.
quote:
Extermination of the Jews
“The Nazis would’ve been successful if they weren’t Nazis”
quote:
Liberators instead of oppressors
“The Nazis would’ve been successful if they weren’t Nazis”
quote:
UBoats
Are you aware of how many were built? You make it seem like the priority wasn’t on Uboats
quote:
Germany shouldn’t have attacked in winter of ‘41. Instead, the goal from the start of Barbarossa should’ve been to take the Soviet oil fields in the Caucuses and cripple the Soviets ability for mechanized warfare.
They didn’t attack in the winter of ‘41. Army Group south was tasked with cutting off the Caucasus at the Volga . The whole operation was held up due to having the help the Italians in Greece and to capture entire Soviet armies.
This post was edited on 2/23/25 at 7:05 pm
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:33 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:
Even hotter take, we should not have involved ourselves in the European theater of either World War.
Perhaps not, but doing so is why we became the powerhouse so quickly.
Our manufacturing doesn’t become what it was without involvement in WW1 and 2 in Europe, and the aftermath of both.
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:35 pm to Indefatigable
quote:I had no idea what you were talking about until I looked it up.
That’s how I do it in HOI4 and it works every time
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:35 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:
Even hotter take, we should not have involved ourselves in the European theater of either World War.
The US fails to establish itself as a super power, Europe becomes all Germany and Germany becomes the main superpower. We fight a Cold War against Germany until eventually the fight comes to our shores, and we see Americans slaughtered on our own lands. Sounds like a great take there buddy
Posted on 2/23/25 at 2:36 pm to KCkid
quote:
A lot of “What Ifs” there.
If they had done what he suggested they would not have been Nazi's
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