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Message
re: Would you support government or Christian’s in the United States?
Posted on 4/20/24 at 12:41 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Posted on 4/20/24 at 12:41 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
a·the·ist noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
My dictionary app says:
Atheist (noun)
- a person who does not believe in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
- a person who believes that there is no supreme being or beings.
“Lack of belief” is intentionally misleading from an atheist perspective. Kind of like how Dawkins describes the appearance of design as an illusion; “yeah, I know, it really, really looks like x, but, I assure you it’s y. Take my completely unbiased word for it.”
quote:
ag·nos·tic noun
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
You must have a liberal dictionary.
Mine says:
Agnostic (noun)
- a person who holds that the answers to the basic questions of existence, such as the nature of the ultimate cause and whether or not there is a supreme being, are unknown or unknowable.
- a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
- a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic:
If anything, I would say that a person who believes that something is unknowable more closely resembles a lack of belief in either of the two positions.
quote:
I'd say I'm some combination of an apatheist and an antitheist. I don't particularly care if there's some deity out there, but I know that religion is bullshite.
I get it. You’re someone who really hates religion, but doesn’t care enough to provide evidence to support your claims. But, to claim on one hand that you don’t care, and then you “fight against” something that you claim not to care about, seems logically inconsistent. If you’re ok with that, then I’m ok with that.
quote:
I've gone around with FooHamChoo in the past
Ok. Good. So you should easily be able to recall the evidences that you rest your worldview on.
quote:
and no matter how the discussion goes, it ends with "I'm right and I have The Truth because my god says so." He isn't interested in honest discussion. He's here to proselytize and he's full of shite.
Foo is one of the very few posters on this site that truly has conviction in his beliefs, and consistently articulates the same biblically sound message. You may disagree with his message, and/or his delivery; but to question his intent or his commitment or his logical consistency is either willfully ignorant or simply dishonest.
quote:
My only interest in participating in discussions with him is to waste his time.
Well, that’s apparently all you’re capable of.
quote:
If I'm being honest, it's exactly what I said. The more I've learned and the more I've traveled, the more I've seen how full of shite religion is. Christianity isn't immune to that.
I think we should discuss this further. I think we could find some common ground here.
quote:
I'm still a somewhat spiritual person, I just don't think it comes from the Christian god, or any others.
Ok. Let’s explore that further as well. Seriously, I would like to know the reasons behind these claims.
2
Posted on 4/20/24 at 1:20 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
Dawkins describes the appearance (by people ignorant of modern scientific theory) of design as an illusion
FIFY
quote:
yeah, I know, it really, really looks like x
Not his argument
quote:
but, I assure you it’s y. Take my completely unbiased word for it.
Also not his argument. There’s no word of his to take, unbiased or biased. He lays out the irrefutable facts, which convey the fact of evolution of species by means of natural selection and genetic drift. These facts have been peer reviewed and are accepted by the overwhelming consensus scientists, and these facts are what make modern agriculture and medicine possible. They can be studied and learned by anyone from an array of scientific papers, journals, and books with cited sources and results of experiments. No need to take Mr. Dawkins word as the ultimate authority. He isn’t our god.
You should try reading Dawkins’ published literature though… you might see for yourself that he shows countless examples of what he calls illusions and explains how life is not designed. You might learn something.
Posted on 4/20/24 at 2:23 pm to Liberator
quote:
From whence and where does "spirituality" spring forth?
The Magic Cheese on the Moon.
quote:
And can you define your "spirit"?
I like relaxing in a cool mountain stream, personally.
Posted on 4/20/24 at 2:25 pm to RCDfan1950
quote:
Good Book says as much
OK, Ken.
Your book says a lot more than that.
Posted on 4/20/24 at 2:31 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
My dictionary app says
quote:
Mine says
K.
I'll stick with Oxford.
quote:
I get it.
You really don't.
I'm not going to spend time engaging someone whose ultimate retort to everything is "my god says." If I'm going to waste my time on something, it won't be trying to pull some fundamentalist weirdo out of that mindset.
quote:
So you should easily be able to recall the evidences that you rest your worldview on.
I can. You can also search it out if it's that important to you, because it isn't that important to me.
quote:
Foo is one of the very few posters on this site that truly has conviction in his beliefs, and consistently articulates the same biblically sound message. You may disagree with his message, and/or his delivery; but to question his intent or his commitment or his logical consistency is either willfully ignorant or simply dishonest.
He's full of shite. I don't care how vehemently he believes what he's selling. Being zealous about something doesn't make someone more interesting.
quote:
Well, that’s apparently all you’re capable of.
Nope, but when you've demonstrated that you're not interested in serious discussion you shouldn't be surprised when you don't get it.
quote:
Seriously, I would like to know the reasons behind these claims.
Then change the way you're communicating with others here.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 2:13 pm to WonTonDonWon
quote:I have to say that belief in the biblical God is required to truly know that such a thing is "way beyond wrong".
I'm just pointing out that the religious part of it goes out the window once the government wants to start killing any group of people. Or do you need faith in a higher power to know that is way beyond wrong?
What I am trying to point out is not that those who reject God can't have some sort of personal understanding of right and wrong, but that without an objective source of moral reasoning (God), their views of morality are logically reduced to nothing more than opinions and preferences with no real meaning to them. Without an objective moral standard, one cannot actually "know" something is immoral/wrong, but can only dislike a particular action as displeasing to their own personal preferences.
Objectively, in an atheistic worldview, there is no rational basis for condemning anyone for acting consistently with their own arbitrary moral framework, and since atheism precludes the existence of objective morality, the atheist has no ground to stand upon to make a meaningful statement of praise or condemnation for any action at all.
So for the atheist to say that the government killing any group of people is "way beyond wrong", he is actually just expressing his own personal opinion rather than holding to an objectively true statement. No, it's not objectively wrong for the government to kill any group of people--Christian or otherwise--according to atheistic presuppositions, because there is no objective standard of morality in their worldview to compare such actions to in order to make a clear judgement.
In conclusion, yes, one does have to acknowledge a higher power (the Biblical God, specifically) in order to know that the government killing any groups of people is way beyond wrong.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 2:15 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:Again, no, it's not. I've already explained why it's not. I'm giving particular reasons for what I'm saying, and so far, you haven't given any reasons for why you disagree. You are just saying otherwise. That's not a particularly intellectual way to argue.
Yes, it is. The only thing holding you back is your knowledge that you'd never get what you really want.
quote:OK, so religious belief generally being an influence to government is not so offensive to you, only particular beliefs that do not overlap with secular thinking?
No. Religion has borrowed enough that it isn't completely backwards and wrong.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 2:20 pm to Snipe
If the government goes after a religion, then I'm obliged by the constitution to resist.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 2:20 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:You spend more time focusing on me as a person and my personal wants and thoughts that you claim to have God-like insight to (while ignoring my truthful and direct statements to the contrary) than you do on any sort of arguments I present. I wonder why that is, since you have no problem reminding me that you don't actually care what I think. Such a peculiar way to act.
I don't really care what you want.
quote:Well you claimed that you repeatedly demonstrated that I was wrong and then provided one anecdotal example without support. I'm simply asking for you to prove your point. So go ahead and show me where my actions demonstrate you repeatedly proving me wrong.
You threw a fit because your "my god said" bullshite was repeatedly ignored. I don't care about that argument and I never will.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 2:29 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:You are now making a positive claim that God does not exist. Can you provide evidence backing your assertion since you are the one making the allegation in this instance?
Positive assertions require positive evidence. The one making the allegation...is the one required to provide the evidence backing your assertion.
...
I am pro-life and reject moral authority from God because God does not exist.
quote:Says who? And if morality is based on cultural norms, then shouldn't it be considered immoral in our culture to be pro-life, since it seems that the cultural consensus is that abortion is the acceptable (i.e., moral) thing at this time?
Morality is subjective but it is based on cultural norms...
Are you acting immorally to go against what is culturally accepted as "moral" if morality truly is subjective and basd on cultural norms?
quote:Says who? What is culturally acceptable and what comports to "the golden rule" aren't always the same thing. When those things are in conflict, what is the greater authority, and why?
...and the golden rule.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 2:30 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:You don't have to agree with my arguments but you need to show me where my actual argument is a circular fallacy. You gave a false argument as attributed to me and I'm asking you to show where my actual argument is viciously (fallaciously) circular.
Let’s move past your circular fallacies. We aren’t going to agree.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 2:45 pm to RCDfan1950
Jesus spoke in parables to help them understand. A teaching tool. Not to make it cryptic.
And paradox it is because He Is the Way of Life and we are on the path to the way of death. Totally divergent paths. He offers redemption, but not on our flawed and fallen terms.
And paradox it is because He Is the Way of Life and we are on the path to the way of death. Totally divergent paths. He offers redemption, but not on our flawed and fallen terms.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 2:57 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
Buckeye, you sure are fighting hard against something you say doesn’t exist. In your own words you say “I’m not going to spend time engaging”, and “if I’m going to waste my time on something, it won’t be trying to pull some fundamentalist weirdo out of that mindset”.
Yet this is exactly what you’re doing. You don’t even believe your own words. Or maybe you’re a hypocrite. Why are you fighting so hard against something that doesn’t exist? I have a sneaking suspicion you’re not really an atheist. Maybe you really think YOU are the god.
Think about it.
Yet this is exactly what you’re doing. You don’t even believe your own words. Or maybe you’re a hypocrite. Why are you fighting so hard against something that doesn’t exist? I have a sneaking suspicion you’re not really an atheist. Maybe you really think YOU are the god.
Think about it.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 6:27 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I'll stick with Oxford.
So, liberal then. Gotcha.
quote:
You really don't.
quote:
I'm not going to spend time engaging someone whose ultimate retort to everything is "my god says."
Your have 77 posts in this thread alone. Though, I do agree with you that not a single one of them is “engaging.”
quote:
I can.
I doubt it.
quote:
You can also search it out if it's that important to you
I skimmed the last 20 pages of your post history. While it is a master class in internet trolling, there is absolutely nothing of substance to it.
quote:
Nope
quote:
but when you've demonstrated that you're not interested in serious discussion you shouldn't be surprised when you don't get it
Seriously? The troll who says that spirituality comes from “the magic cheese on the moon” is interested in serious discussion?
quote:
Then change the way you're communicating with others here.
I adjust my communication style to reflect the intelligence and integrity of the person I’m talking to.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 6:38 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Squirrelmeister
“Oh My Darwin! He’s misquoting the high priest, Richard Dawkins! I must defend his great honor!”
Thanks for that GIF!
Posted on 4/21/24 at 7:00 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Again, no, it's not.
Yes, it is.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 7:01 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I wonder why that is
You shouldn't. I've told you many times that your "my god says so" arguments have no value.
quote:
Well you claimed that you repeatedly demonstrated that I was wrong
Correct. That's why you started pouting about it.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 7:02 pm to bkhrph
quote:
Buckeye, you sure are fighting hard against something you say doesn’t exist.
Nonsense. I've never claimed that religion does not exist.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 7:04 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
So, liberal then.
Always. It always comes out eventually.
This right here is why I don't waste time with lengthy, serious responses with people like you, sport.
Posted on 4/21/24 at 7:08 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
This right here is why I don't waste time with lengthy, serious responses with people like you, sport.
No, it’s not. You’re incapable.
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