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Message
re: Can this 747 take off?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 10:52 am to LNCHBOX
Posted on 4/11/24 at 10:52 am to LNCHBOX
quote:It's truly puzzling that you don't get this. There is absolutely no way the plane can move forward under this hypo.
Thrust has been rendered irrelevant by the belt matching the speed of the wheels.
Really hope you don't have an actual degree from A&M
0
Posted on 4/11/24 at 10:52 am to TD422
quote:
The treadmill belt is moving the wheels.
Why though? It's supposed to be matching the speed, so without "outside variables" what speed is there to match?
quote:
The wheel speed just matches the treadmill speed. STILL no lift provided. How will it take off?
Again, where is a wheel speed greater than zero introduced?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 10:55 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
Again, where is a wheel speed greater than zero introduced?
As soon as the plane moves forward the wheels are spinning, which again, breaks the hypothetical.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 10:57 am to UpToPar
quote:
As soon as the plane moves forward the wheels are spinning, which again, breaks the hypothetical.
That breaks the hypothetical though. If it perfectly matches the speed of the wheels, and according to yall the plane will not move, ho could there possibly ever be a speed greater than zero?
Yalls argument is the plane will not move, so you must also argue that the wheels never rotate at all.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 10:59 am to LNCHBOX
quote:They are spinning on the conveyor belt. 1:40ish here
Yalls argument is the plane will not move, so you must also argue that the wheels never rotate at all.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:00 am to LNCHBOX
Seriously bro, I think you took one too many philosophy courses. Sorta like when a professor asks you to stand under the light fixture in class and asks what shape it is, then tells you to go to the corner of the room and says because your perspective changed, and the perceived shape changed, it it real? 
Or, are the wheels blue or gold in the picture?
Or, are the wheels blue or gold in the picture?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:01 am to AlxTgr
quote:
They are spinning on the conveyor belt
But how? For the wheels to ever start rolling, the plane would have to move, which means the magic belt does not instantaneously match the speed of the wheels.
And spare me the car on ice argument I'm sure is coming. The plane does not move by spinning the wheels, so for the wheels to rotate at all, the plane would first have to move.
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 11:04 am
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:02 am to TD422
quote:
Seriously bro, I think you took one too many philosophy courses. Sorta like when a professor asks you to stand under the light fixture in class and asks what shape it is, then tells you to go to the corner of the room and says because your perspective changed, and the perceived shape changed, it it real?
Or, are the wheels blue or gold in the picture?
Another poster deflecting when they can't argue the logic
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:03 am to Street Hawk
quote:
Can this 747 take off?
Not without a 200mph headwind...
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:09 am to TD422
I can't believe this has gone 11 pages.
No, it won't take off because it's not moving relative to the air around it (so no lift generated). It's just gonna sit with its wheels spinning on a conveyor belt.
Now, take a big enough fan and stick it in front of it and it'll take off without the wheels or jet moving at all.
No, it won't take off because it's not moving relative to the air around it (so no lift generated). It's just gonna sit with its wheels spinning on a conveyor belt.
Now, take a big enough fan and stick it in front of it and it'll take off without the wheels or jet moving at all.
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 11:10 am
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:11 am to LNCHBOX
quote:Nope, the hypo clearly explains this.
For the wheels to ever start rolling, the plane would have to move, which means the magic belt does not instantaneously match the speed of the wheels.
quote:Don't know what this is, so it's not coming.
And spare me the car on ice argument I'm sure is coming.
For the plane to move forward under this hypo, the tires would have to skid since the belt is matching the wheels. The plane cannot more forward.
Can you please explain how the plane can move? I just don't get your side's argument on that.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:11 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
That breaks the hypothetical though. If it perfectly matches the speed of the wheels, and according to yall the plane will not move, ho could there possibly ever be a speed greater than zero?
Right. The hypothetical is broken.
quote:
Yalls argument is the plane will not move, so you must also argue that the wheels never rotate at all.
The wheel and belt either never move (but we know this won't be the case because there is a forward force exerted on the plane from the thrust of the engines) or they almost instantaneously increase speed to infinity.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:14 am to UpToPar
The plane doesn’t need to be moving “forward” to take off
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 11:15 am
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:14 am to AlxTgr
quote:
Nope, the hypo clearly explains this.
Clearly how? Please quote it.
quote:
For the plane to move forward under this hypo, the tires would have to skid since the belt is matching the wheels. The plane cannot more forward.
Actually the thrust would just need to overcome the friction generated between the wheels and conveyor belt. Now that I've thought about it more, both the belt and wheels would have a speed of 0 since any other speed invalidates the entire hypothetical, and the plane would take off with locked up wheels given enough length of magic belt. That satisfies all constraints of this hypnotical.
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 11:17 am
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:20 am to FutureCorridor49
quote:
The plane doesn’t need to be moving “forward” to take off
Sure it does. If we assume there is zero headwind the plane has to move forward to generate enough airspeed over the wings to generate lift. It's not a helicopter.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:21 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
Yalls argument is the plane will not move, so you must also argue that the wheels never rotate at all.
I hadn't thought about it that way.
Lock the breaks on the wheels (or remove wheels and put a skid).
The conveyer belt doesn't move.
Wheels don't move.
And the jet still propels itself forward with thrust.
Good catch.
This doesn't "break" the question.
And the plane will do what planes do.
Thrust forward and create lift.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:40 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
But how? For the wheels to ever start rolling, the plane would have to move, which means the magic belt does not instantaneously match the speed of the wheels.
I’ll give you that. Again, it’s a hypothetical either poorly designed or perfectly designed to cause an argument.
FWIW, the argument that it would take off with wheels locked up seems even more absurd. This would never happen, something would break before lift off causing it to go to the belly and never take off.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:42 am to baldona
It's explained in clear words in the video I posted above.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:43 am to baldona
quote:
FWIW, the argument that it would take off with wheels locked up seems even more absurd. This would never happen, something would break before lift off causing it to go to the belly and never take off.
"This would never happen" in an argument about a magic conveyor belt
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 11:45 am
Posted on 4/11/24 at 11:59 am to LNCHBOX
quote:no,
But how? For the wheels to ever start rolling, the plane would have to move
Have you ever seen a conveyor belt?
If the plane was attached to the conveyor belt and the belt was going fast enough for the wings to create lift, would the plane lift? Yes.
The movement of the plane is essential, if the scenario described below and the energy created from the engines is not pushing the plane forward, but being used by the wheels to match the conveyor. For the energy to be applied to forward momentum of the plane it would have to exceed the energy of the treadmill, which in this absurd scenario will not happen.
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