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Started By
Message
1
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:41 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
You keep making an argument that is not part of the scenario.
Thrust is not part of answering the question 
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:42 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
But your answer doesn't answer the question. A better question for your answer would be "will the plane take off"
The plane is sitting on the runway. Where does it say that the engines have to be on or thrusting? This answer is the riddle like answer. Nowhere in the question does it state that there even has to be people on the plane.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:44 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
Where does it say that the engines have to be on or thrusting?
It doesn't. "Can it take off" is asking if there are any scenarios in which it can take off.
quote:
This answer is the riddle like answer.
There's no riddle to that answer.
quote:
Nowhere in the question does it state that there even has to be people on the plane.
It doesn't need to, as the question is left open-ended. I feel like I'm getting trolled now.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:45 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
It doesn't need to, as the question is left open-ended. I feel like I'm getting trolled now.
That's the point of that answer. Hell the whole thing is designed to make people fight with each other.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:46 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
That's the point of that answer
It doesn't answer the question though, it limits the question to one specific scenario and answers that one specific instance.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:47 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
Why do they turn? Put your hot wheel car on a treadmill then apply force pushing the car, You would have to apply force to keep the plane from going backwards, correct? The faster the treadmill moved the more you would have to apply.
How strong are you?
How much force down would it take to keep the hot wheel car stationary on the moving tread mill.
I'm not talking about any energy forward to offset the energy from the treadmill.
How much downward force would be required to keep the car stationary?
If zero force forward is required to keep the hot wheel stationary, how much force would you need to move a freewheeling hotwheel car forward and backward on the moving treadmill.
A 747 has 240,000 horsepower.
The effect of a treadmill versus that level of thrust is negligible at best.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:50 pm to LNCHBOX
I guess the short answer is it’s impossible for the conveyor to match the wheel speed.
The plane will always move forward in space due to the thrust against the air which is unrelated to the ground and as the wheels spin freely they will accelerate beyond the speed of the conveyor every time as the plane moves forward.
The plane will always move forward in space due to the thrust against the air which is unrelated to the ground and as the wheels spin freely they will accelerate beyond the speed of the conveyor every time as the plane moves forward.
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 12:52 pm
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:50 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:Not at all.
Thrust is not part of answering the question
In the mythbusters experiment, thrust is applied, the wheels turn at TWICE the speed of the treadmill, air speed is achieved and lift is created. Because thrust was part of the equation. In this one, that scenario can never be created.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:51 pm to baldona
quote:
The wheels do not nor have they ever simply "free wheeled". There is a ton of friction from the load of the plane on them.
Do we now need to explain the purpose and physics of “wheels?”
Jesus.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:53 pm to meansonny
quote:Again, irrelevant, this scenario has wheels and tires that are exactly matched to the treadmill or belt. What if it was a lawnmower engine driven prop plane with 15 HP? It does not change the hypothetical.
A 747 has 240,000 horsepower.
The effect of a treadmill versus that level of thrust is negligible at best.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:53 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
It doesn't answer the question though, it limits the question to one specific scenario and answers that one specific instance.
Are you sure it's just one scenario that fits that? These open-ended weird questions are designed to make you think about all the details.
Is there are pilot?
Are we actually trying to take off?
Do we have clearance?
Why is there a giant treadmill in the first place?
If you want to keep arguing though because you need to be internet right, go for it.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:53 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
Not at all.
Where can I send your dunce cap?
quote:
In this one, that scenario can never be created.
It doesn't need to be created. But if it was created. Both the wheels and conveyor belt would not move, and the thrust of the engines would push the plane forward. Assuming nothing breaks and a long enough belt, the plane takes off because the thrust of the engines will greatly overpower the friction between the wheels and the belt.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:54 pm to Dam Guide
quote:
Are you sure it's just one scenario that fits that? These open-ended weird questions are designed to make you think about all the details.
Is there are pilot?
Are we actually trying to take off?
Do we have clearance?
Why is there a giant treadmill in the first place?
If you want to keep arguing though because you need to be internet right, go for it.
Yea, I'm teh one mindlessly arguing here while you go down this rabbit hole
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:54 pm to Volvagia
quote:A wheel will stay in a stationary position until force is applied.
Do we now need to explain the purpose and physics of “wheels?”
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:56 pm to baldona
quote:
If you put a stroller on a conveyor in an airport it doesn't just sit there in place. It will move down the conveyor.
OK. And you are standing beside the conveyor.
You put your hand on the stroller and press down (not forward).
How strong do you have to be to hold the stroller in place?
How strong do you have to be to roll the stroller 1 foot forward and 1 foot backwards while on the conveyer.
That is the definition of free wheeling.
The force to keep the object stationary on a treadmill/conveyor is negligible.
Now strap on 240,000 horsepower.
What effect does the conveyor have on the stroller/747 with that level of thrust?
If your hand can easily rock the stroller back and forth against the force of the moving sidewalk, what can a jet engine do thrusting the air in front and behind the plane?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 12:58 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
Well, this is wrong. The plane is supported by the wheels which are in contact with the treadmill. There's no way for the plane to move forward under the hypo.
The wheels are not in contact with the plane, at least in the direction of takeoff in this 1 dimensional thought exercise.
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 4/11/24 at 1:00 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:Again, and lastly, it can not in this experiment. You keep saying things that are not part of the question as posed.
the plane takes off because the thrust of the engines will greatly overpower the friction between the wheels and the belt.
If your above is correct, the wheels would not be matching the belt speed, and this is not how the question is written.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 1:01 pm to tigerfoot
It’s absolutely relevant.
The speed of the belt is irrelevant.
Again, a plane isn’t moving with respect to the ground. It’s pressing against the air, and that’s the frame of reference that matters.
It’s not like planes go in “car mode” when landing.
So the only way for the conveyor belt to impede the plane to take off, is to introduce so much friction in the wheel bearings to overwhelm the thrust of the engines
Let me illustrate the importance of the frame of reference argument.
If there is a wind that matches take off velocity, a plane can take off with zero ground velocity, because it’s built to run with respect to air.
For the Belt-ivan logic to hold, and have speeds have equal relevance between frames of reference, it would mean a person couldn’t walk into a 20+mph wind ever. That is past athlete sprinting speed. According to yall, it doesn’t matter that you walk by pressing against the ground, the wind should counter it!
Or is your argument that the rules suddenly change when applied in the opposite direction?
The speed of the belt is irrelevant.
Again, a plane isn’t moving with respect to the ground. It’s pressing against the air, and that’s the frame of reference that matters.
It’s not like planes go in “car mode” when landing.
So the only way for the conveyor belt to impede the plane to take off, is to introduce so much friction in the wheel bearings to overwhelm the thrust of the engines
Let me illustrate the importance of the frame of reference argument.
If there is a wind that matches take off velocity, a plane can take off with zero ground velocity, because it’s built to run with respect to air.
For the Belt-ivan logic to hold, and have speeds have equal relevance between frames of reference, it would mean a person couldn’t walk into a 20+mph wind ever. That is past athlete sprinting speed. According to yall, it doesn’t matter that you walk by pressing against the ground, the wind should counter it!
Or is your argument that the rules suddenly change when applied in the opposite direction?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 1:01 pm to tigerfoot
quote:
Again, and lastly, it can not in this experiment.
Why?
quote:
You keep saying things that are not part of the question as posed.
Using teh engines is not part of the question?
quote:
If your above is correct, the wheels would not be matching the belt speed, and this is not how the question is written.
The wheels and belt would both be moving at zero RPM.
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