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Started By
Message
Help me determine some Objective Truth
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:16 am
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:16 am
As we all know, our religious beliefs play a huge role in helping to guide our political policies. I’m hoping you guys could settle something for me - help me determine the Objective Truth. Notice I am capitalizing the “T” in truth, because that’s what I’m looking for.
In Deuteronomy 6, it states
And in Numbers 14, it seems clear that the LORD doesn’t want to be tested:
And Psalm 106 is yet another mention referring to Deuteronomy and Numbers:
And even Jesus says (Matthew 4:7, Luke 4:12) we shall not put the LORD to the test (I’m pretty sure he was quoting Deuteronomy).
But in Malachi 3, the LORD says this:
And in 1 Kings 18, Adonai approves of Elijah putting him to the test:
I am confused. All the times the LORD said not to test him, and punished those who tested him with torture and death, seems to delight in Elijah’s test.
Side note: Elijah then slaughtered all the prophets of Baal, with seeming approval from the LORD. Elijah knows the commandment to not murder others, but murders these Canaanite priests (without orders from the LORD). Also funny in that story is that those priests fell on their faces and acknowledged that Adonai is God. Basically, Yahweh had 300+ converts! He had revealed himself to these priests and they recognized his Godhood. Why then would Elijah have them slaughtered with God’s approval?
Does the LORD approve of being tested or not? If ya’ll could help me with some Objective Truth on the matter I’d appreciate it. TIA
In Deuteronomy 6, it states
quote:
14You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you— 15for the LORD your God in your midst is a jealous God—lest the anger of the LORD your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth. 16“You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah.
And in Numbers 14, it seems clear that the LORD doesn’t want to be tested:
quote:
20Then the LORD said, “I have pardoned, according to your word. 21But truly, as I live, and as all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD, 22none of the men who have seen my glory and my signs that I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and yet have put me to the test these ten times and have not obeyed my voice, 23shall see the land that I swore to give to their fathers. And none of those who despised me shall see it.
And Psalm 106 is yet another mention referring to Deuteronomy and Numbers:
quote:
13But they soon forgot his works; they did not wait for his counsel. 14But they had a wanton craving in the wilderness, and put God to the test in the desert; 15he gave them what they asked, but sent a wasting disease among them.
And even Jesus says (Matthew 4:7, Luke 4:12) we shall not put the LORD to the test (I’m pretty sure he was quoting Deuteronomy).
But in Malachi 3, the LORD says this:
quote:
10Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.
And in 1 Kings 18, Adonai approves of Elijah putting him to the test:
quote:
36And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word. 37Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.” 38Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
I am confused. All the times the LORD said not to test him, and punished those who tested him with torture and death, seems to delight in Elijah’s test.
Side note: Elijah then slaughtered all the prophets of Baal, with seeming approval from the LORD. Elijah knows the commandment to not murder others, but murders these Canaanite priests (without orders from the LORD). Also funny in that story is that those priests fell on their faces and acknowledged that Adonai is God. Basically, Yahweh had 300+ converts! He had revealed himself to these priests and they recognized his Godhood. Why then would Elijah have them slaughtered with God’s approval?
Does the LORD approve of being tested or not? If ya’ll could help me with some Objective Truth on the matter I’d appreciate it. TIA
14
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:32 am to Squirrelmeister
You aren't interested in truth. You just want to shake your fist at your creator and show Him that you are the god of your life.
As I and others have pointed out to you many times before, we could go one by one through all of the alleged contradictions and inconsistencies from the Bible and show you how to reconcile them, and you will just create another post on a different one until you've exhausted them and then you'll start over, because you're not interested in clearing up your own confusion but are trying to ruin the faith of Christ's people.
I really do hope the Lord changes your heart and gives you eyes to see the truth so that you will repent of your evil works and put your trust in Jesus Christ to forgive you for your sins.
As I and others have pointed out to you many times before, we could go one by one through all of the alleged contradictions and inconsistencies from the Bible and show you how to reconcile them, and you will just create another post on a different one until you've exhausted them and then you'll start over, because you're not interested in clearing up your own confusion but are trying to ruin the faith of Christ's people.
I really do hope the Lord changes your heart and gives you eyes to see the truth so that you will repent of your evil works and put your trust in Jesus Christ to forgive you for your sins.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:34 am to Squirrelmeister
Troll doing troll stuff.
Ignore this dweeb
Ignore this dweeb
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:38 am to Squirrelmeister
Objective Truth: you protest just a wee bit too much.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:39 am to Squirrelmeister
You want objective truth?
Here’s one for you.
Here’s one for you.
quote:
”For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,“
Romans 1:20-22
This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 9:40 am
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:39 am to Squirrelmeister
The Old Testament God tolerated very little bullshite.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:39 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:OK. You're an atheist and love to argue. Truth!
Help me determine some Objective Truth
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:48 am to Squirrelmeister
Pretty clear that in the first examples, people tested for their own human satisfaction, while in the latter, the subjects were in communion with the Lord and the Lord seemingly requested the test.
Also, it is very clear that while the Old Testament is a history of Israel, it chronicles the attempts and failures of imperfect humans to be the Messiah.
Also, it is very clear that while the Old Testament is a history of Israel, it chronicles the attempts and failures of imperfect humans to be the Messiah.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:32 am to Squirrelmeister
You won't get any straight answers.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:37 am to Squirrelmeister
I don't see any discrepancy in the examples of testing God you present. The context makes it clear. If the subject is moving away from God, there is a risk of punishment. If the subject is moving towards God (which requires humility and faith... which is sometimes hard in worldly circumstances), they will be rewarded.
To understand this, let's consider this idea via analogy... Consider for a moment if you had a relationship with a girlfriend.
1) If you remain "just dating" for a year or two, you aren't really testing the relationship. You're in a comfortable / stable zone at that point.
2) If, from the initial context of the stability of dating for a year or two, you make new friends and are suddenly going out 4 times a week and ignoring her / taking her for granted, you are testing your relationship with her (you're testing her), and it should not be surprising if she objects to being suddenly ignored. And there may be repercussions in your relationship with her.
*** Most of the tests you list fall into this category. There is an implied warning that moving away from God moves you away from Grace and puts you in increased danger from being subjected to the downside of God's laws.
3) If, from the initial context of the stability of happily dating for a year or two, you decide to get serious and propose to your girlfriend, you are again testing her. This time, though, the test requires an act of faith on your part as you attempt to move towards her (not away); and if she is faithful and loves you, this test will be met with happiness and a stronger union.
*** The Malachi scripture you quote heavily implies that if you put your faith in God (move towards God, NOT away), you will be rewarded. This is unambiguous (even if it can be hard to see IRL).
*** In the Kings scripture, when Elijah calls for an answer from God, he has already explicity defined that he is a servant of God and done what God has asked of him. He is leaning into God here, not away from him. He has already surrendered to God and is following orders to the best of his understanding. He is NOT standing apart from God and demanding justification from God from egoic desire. The scripture reads clearly this way with Elijah basically saying, "OK, God, I did everything you asked of me, and it's in your hands now to reveal the Truth of it." So, I don't even really see Elijah testing God the way you're trying to imply.
To understand this, let's consider this idea via analogy... Consider for a moment if you had a relationship with a girlfriend.
1) If you remain "just dating" for a year or two, you aren't really testing the relationship. You're in a comfortable / stable zone at that point.
2) If, from the initial context of the stability of dating for a year or two, you make new friends and are suddenly going out 4 times a week and ignoring her / taking her for granted, you are testing your relationship with her (you're testing her), and it should not be surprising if she objects to being suddenly ignored. And there may be repercussions in your relationship with her.
*** Most of the tests you list fall into this category. There is an implied warning that moving away from God moves you away from Grace and puts you in increased danger from being subjected to the downside of God's laws.
3) If, from the initial context of the stability of happily dating for a year or two, you decide to get serious and propose to your girlfriend, you are again testing her. This time, though, the test requires an act of faith on your part as you attempt to move towards her (not away); and if she is faithful and loves you, this test will be met with happiness and a stronger union.
*** The Malachi scripture you quote heavily implies that if you put your faith in God (move towards God, NOT away), you will be rewarded. This is unambiguous (even if it can be hard to see IRL).
*** In the Kings scripture, when Elijah calls for an answer from God, he has already explicity defined that he is a servant of God and done what God has asked of him. He is leaning into God here, not away from him. He has already surrendered to God and is following orders to the best of his understanding. He is NOT standing apart from God and demanding justification from God from egoic desire. The scripture reads clearly this way with Elijah basically saying, "OK, God, I did everything you asked of me, and it's in your hands now to reveal the Truth of it." So, I don't even really see Elijah testing God the way you're trying to imply.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:40 am to Squirrelmeister
I am also a non-believer, but damn man let people believe or do as they please.
You're not going to change anyone's mind and vice versa. No need to try to stir the hornets nest.
I don't even call myself an agnostic or atheist because I'm not lumping myself in with them either.
You're not going to change anyone's mind and vice versa. No need to try to stir the hornets nest.
I don't even call myself an agnostic or atheist because I'm not lumping myself in with them either.
This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 11:57 am
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:44 am to Squirrelmeister
He’s God.
He doesn’t owe YOU (one of His creations) any explanations.
He doesn’t owe YOU (one of His creations) any explanations.
This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 11:44 am
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:53 am to Squirrelmeister
No Dead Sea Scroll references, no OP credibility...
Posted on 2/27/24 at 12:10 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Does the LORD approve of being tested or not? If ya’ll could help me with some Objective Truth on the matter I’d appreciate it.
There's no such thing as objective truth. Every scenario is an observable event and the recounting will intrinsically be subjective.
Beyond that your core question and background context has two logical fallacies embedded in it, Black or White and Composition / Division. How you've posed the question and embedded your definition of Objective Truth is a bad faith question. You're simply either setting up your future argument or are looking to create a scenario where any given answer you would deem unresolvable.
As they say, if you want the truth, go to the source. Find the lord and seek his wisdom for yourself.
This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 12:12 pm
Posted on 2/27/24 at 12:26 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Does the LORD approve of being tested or not?
I don’t think it’s about whether He approves or not. It’s about under what conditions He approves or not.
It seems to me, that in the first examples, God is telling them not to test His wrath by justice - because He doesn’t want to have to punish them. In the latter examples, He wants them to test His faithfulness to His own word.
Similar to how I warn my children of the consequences (I take away privileges and such) of their willful disobedience to my instruction (which exists for their benefit), and ask that they don’t make me have to discipline them- as I take no pleasure in it. This is in contrast to how I encourage them to accomplish the goals that I have set for them, and to receive the rewards that I have promised them.
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