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Started By
Message
re: Starved to Death in an American Jail, the Man Who Couldn't Pay $100 Bail
Posted on 2/27/24 at 8:42 am to 4cubbies
Posted on 2/27/24 at 8:42 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Do you believe that the motivation behind bail reform is to keep dangerous people on the street? Like you think that's what people are using as their talking point when lobbying for bail reform?
I'm sure he doesn't believe it is the motivation, I'm sure he believes it would be an unintended consequence.
I have mixed feelings on bail. On one hand, I do not believe in citizens losing rights/freedoms without having been convicted of offenses that rise to the level of them losing those rights/freedoms.
That's why I don't believe in taking someone's firearm from them pending a hearing. That's loss of a constitutional right without due process.
So on that hand I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
On the other hand, my best friend is a judge. And I am constantly amazed by how many people do not show up for court when they are supposed to.
And it's expensive to incarcerate them.
So what do those of you who advocate for bail reform suggest to ensure that people show up for their court appearances? Ankle monitors or something? I have to think that's got to be really expensive too.
Apologies if you've already explained that answer somewhere else. I haven't read the entire gigantic thread.
Another bit of mental pushback I experience regarding bail reform is that the court fines people all the time. Some of the same things can happen to someone as a result of having to pay a court imposed fine that can happen to them when they are required to pay bail. Are we to eliminate court fines? If not, why not? If so, what do we do instead?
1
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:17 am to 4cubbies
The same people whining for bail reform are the same people that elect DAs that turn killers loose. The same people that elect mayors that won’t cooperate with ice.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:42 am to roadGator
What’s the point of posting that? What kind of response are you looking for? How does that comment foster any type of discussion? It’s just lazy and useless.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:49 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
On the other hand, my best friend is a judge. And I am constantly amazed by how many people do not show up for court when they are supposed to.
The vast majority of people who fail to appear in court simply forgot, didn't have transportation, couldn't miss work, or didn't have childcare. They didn't abscond or flee.
quote:
So what do those of you who advocate for bail reform suggest to ensure that people show up for their court appearances?
quote:
Researchers conducted field studies in New York City to determine how jurisdictions can effectively reduce failures to appear. They found that, in 2015, about 40 percent of people charged with low-level offenses, like disorderly conduct or trespassing in a park after hours, missed their court date. But a few simple fixes—like redesigning the city’s summons ticket to prominently display the court date and location at the top of the ticket (instead of at the bottom) and sending text message reminders ahead of court dates—reduced failures to appear by between 13 and 21 percent from 2016 to 2019. The researchers estimated that these interventions helped prevent nearly 30,000 arrest warrants for failure to appear from being issued.
LINK
That's one idea.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:53 am to 4cubbies
The point is clear. To understand something fully you must understand it’s origins.
You may not like that as it can be a mirror with an undesirable reflection.
Leftists are never honest. Why are illegals killing people after being detained by NY.
Leftist policies.
Own it. Change it.
Otherwise no one has use for your preening about bond or bail reform.
This should be basic stuff. Often though the tree source of bad nuts is ignored and mostly on purpose without regard for the rest of the Forrest.
You may not like that as it can be a mirror with an undesirable reflection.
Leftists are never honest. Why are illegals killing people after being detained by NY.
Leftist policies.
Own it. Change it.
Otherwise no one has use for your preening about bond or bail reform.
This should be basic stuff. Often though the tree source of bad nuts is ignored and mostly on purpose without regard for the rest of the Forrest.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:58 am to 4cubbies
quote:
The vast majority of people who fail to appear in court simply forgot, didn't have transportation, couldn't miss work, or didn't have childcare. They didn't abscond or flee.
I didn't say they did.
But they still didn't show up. Does it matter why they didn't show up? They weren't present to be tried.
quote:
That's one idea.
O.k., but:
1. That's low level offenses; what about more serious charges? I would think that the large bail numbers that caused such financial hardships for people you were posting earlier were attached to more serious offenses, were they not?
2. Between 13-21%, which means that around 80%+ who were skipping court dates still are. I don't know how impressed I am with that reduction.
2.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:01 am to 4cubbies
quote:
The vast majority of people who fail to appear in court simply forgot, didn't have transportation, couldn't miss work, or didn't have childcare. T
they lie and youre naive. Being poor doesnt make you stupid. Being stupid does make you poor
These people totally understand the system and work it to their benefit.
This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 10:02 am
Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:22 am to 4cubbies
quote:
The vast majority of people who fail to appear in court simply forgot, didn't have transportation, couldn't miss work, or didn't have childcare.
Or the dog ate their homework!
Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:32 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
These people totally understand the system and work it to their benefit.
I wasn't even going to bring this up, but that is also my experience (second-hand from my judge friend.)
They know that the cops aren't going to come find them when they don't show up. So as long as they don't get detained for something else and have their name run, they'll walk around free, and they know it.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 10:56 am to 4cubbies
quote:
The vast majority of people who fail to appear in court simply forgot, didn't have transportation, couldn't miss work, or didn't have childcare. They didn't abscond or flee.
That is why they fail in life. There is always an excuse. Many courts now send out text and email reminders to defendants reminding them of their court appearance. They also give them a grace period of up to a week to come in before a bench warrant is issued.
There are millions of open bench warrants in this country for failure to appear. It’s not because the person couldn’t get off work or forgot. They don’t want to face the consequences or just don’t give a shite.
Many times it’s the same people over and over again.
This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 10:58 am
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:03 am to 4cubbies
quote:
The vast majority of people who fail to appear in court simply forgot, didn't have transportation, couldn't miss work, or didn't have childcare. They didn't abscond or flee.
I bet they wouldn't forget about a free TV give away!
I bet they would find transportation to the give away!
I bet they could get someone to cover their shift in order to go to the free TV give away!
I bet they would find someone to watch little Timmy while they made their way to the free TV give away!
Appearing in court should be more important then a free TV.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:06 am to 4cubbies
quote:
He pantomimed shooting a gun while shouting and behaving erratically in a police station.
Hopefully he learned proper public behavior and will not repeat this mistake.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:07 am to BamaMamaof2
quote:
I bet they wouldn't forget about a free TV give away!
I bet they would find transportation to the give away!
I bet they could get someone to cover their shift in order to go to the free TV give away!
I bet they would find someone to watch little Timmy while they made their way to the free TV give away!
Appearing in court should be more important then a free TV.
Bravo!
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:09 am to 4cubbies
quote:
My position for wanting reforms of our punitive systems is that our government has been increasing the number of people we incarcerated,
There’s an easy solution. Don’t commit crimes and if you make a mistake learn from them.
But sadly, a certain segment doesn’t agree with that and whatever bleeding heart emotional response you have to that is meaningless.
People need to take responsibility for their actions, better themselves and those around them.
Until that happens none of this matters.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:09 am to lsufan1971
quote:
Many times it’s the same people over and over again.
Just go watch court cases on video. Its hard to have sympathy for career criminals.
Evidently, we made crime too easy, and dont punish enough because they continue in their recidivism.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:13 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Hopefully he learned proper public behavior
No, he didn't, because he was mentally ill. That's the point.
quote:
and will not repeat this mistake.
He won't repeat his mistake because he died due to being in a jail that was not competent to deal with his medical condition.
This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 11:14 am
Posted on 2/27/24 at 11:15 am to 4cubbies
quote:
The vast majority of people who fail to appear in court simply forgot, didn't have transportation, couldn't miss work, or didn't have childcare. They didn't abscond or flee.
This could be a reason that people are discussing the history of public policy, namely that you have taken a policy reason and distorted it for an unsubstantiated argument
First, the purpose of bail is not to prevent “abscond or flee”. Instead it’s to ensure appearance. An issue that your assertions seem to indicate is a problem.
Second, where do you get this data and information because that really needs to be challenged. It would have to be a poll. Would the answered include “frick you, that’s why” or “Didn’t think they would catch me”. If not, why not? Even if so, would a person be willing to admit this. Of course there is an excuse. I wonder if it’s the same sources you use to talk about increasing prison populations when you have been shown that populations are on the decline
If a person has a medical issue and to some degree a child care issue, and they let yet he court know before their appearance, they can likely get a continuance. Indeed some of the reason for bail amounts is due to person repeatedly not showing up
You are simultaneously arguing for more RoR and at the same time arguing that missing court dates are no big deal ( and possibly that the process takes too long)
Moreover, people discussing how past policy initiatives failed is discussion.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 2:00 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
He can be involuntarily committed by a judge
That's true but the process is not easy or simple. Medical reports from multiple doctors are required to show that the individual is a danger to himself or others. There are periodic reviews to determine if the person continues to meet the legal requirements for involuntary commitment. What usually happens is that the person who is committed is given medication in the hospital which causes a remission of symptoms. The person seems vastly improved at the review hearing and is released. They usually don't stay on their medications and their condition quickly deteriorates.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 3:23 pm to LRB1967
quote:
That's true but the process is not easy or simple. Medical reports from multiple doctors are required to show that the individual is a danger to himself or others. There are periodic reviews to determine if the person continues to meet the legal requirements for involuntary commitment. What usually happens is that the person who is committed is given medication in the hospital which causes a remission of symptoms. The person seems vastly improved at the review hearing and is released. They usually don't stay on their medications and their condition quickly deteriorates.
I see how that plays out, but it's still not o.k. to put a guy who is mentally ill in jail and let him starve himself to death.
At a minimum on day five or so of refusing to eat the jail personnel should be consulting with a psychiatrist. And if they did so and nothing was done, then I do think the psychiatrist is liable for that guy's death. Definitely as a tort, and possibly criminally responsible depending upon the degree of malpractice and neglect.
And if they jail didn't consult a psychiatrist, then they should be tort liable on the basis of medical neglect.
That's the thing. It's not in anybody's best interest for our system to expect jails/prisons to deal with mentally ill people. The mentally ill person is a danger to him/herself and others, and it puts the facility in a legally dangerous position.
Posted on 2/27/24 at 9:28 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
But they still didn't show up. Does it matter why they didn't show up? They weren't present to be tried.
This is a good point.
quote:I assume that the bail for a serious offense would be set at a rate correlating to the severity of the crime. It’s been a long day and I can’t easily find data around average bail amounts by charge.
1. That's low level offenses; what about more serious charges? I would think that the large bail numbers that caused such financial hardships for people you were posting earlier were attached to more serious offenses, were they not?
quote:
Between 13-21%, which means that around 80%+ who were skipping court dates still are. I don't know how impressed I am with that reduction.
It also means the majority of people are appearing for court.
This post was edited on 2/27/24 at 9:44 pm
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