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re: Software guys of the OT. Questions about coding/getting started.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 10:43 am to jkylejohnson
Posted on 2/13/24 at 10:43 am to jkylejohnson
quote:
Often I’ve seen on here people saying learn to code. So much so that I know it’s kinda became a running joke. I’ve actually been doing a bit of research on learning about it. I’ve purchased a few introductory books just trying to get a general understanding of it all. I’ve also considered enrolling in a coding bootcamp. I even see that LSU offers one. My question is that if I completed a coding bootcamp would I be likely to land a job in the field and what kind of entry level pay would I be looking at roughly if so? . This is something that’s interested me a long time so I’m trying to do my due diligence on looking into it. Any tips or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
The common misconception in the past is that being a software developer was this rockstar job where you got all sorts of glory and paid a shitload of money. That's simply not true in reality... at least not with every job in the field. Yes, it can be highly fun and rewarding, but it can be an absolute miserable burnout inducing experience as well. I started my career in software engineering and have a degree in it, but I would never want to spend 40 hours a week working in a compiler.
This post was edited on 2/13/24 at 10:46 am
0
Posted on 2/13/24 at 11:13 am to jkylejohnson
Forget all these people saying don't get into coding now as AI will take it over. These aren't people that are involved with the industry. I've been a hiring software dev manager in Tech for 25+ years for Fortune 100 companies. There's still so many complex environments that need integration / integration support that aren't going anywhere soon. And businesses / orgs are constantly wanting new functionality. Sure, AI can write code, but the integration is the key and it doesn't address that (yet).
The key to success is to be a jack of all trades / generalist, learning how to code in the prevalent languages is just the tip of the iceburg. Then you should learn scripting to tie the programs together on a specific operating / cloud system, SQL backward and forward, cloud technologies around Azure and AWS (huge opportunities here), cloud data storage such as Snowflake, networking (know all the layers), cybersecurity (integration is key here), dev and collaboration tools / methodologies (Agile, Jira, Github). Learn the leadership skills that drive how projects / initiatives are executed (delivery/project management, scrum master, etc.) Someone mentioned biz process knowledge, always a key to success.
There is no end to learning in this field - why I joined it years ago. Keep learning while being a flexible resource and you'll always have a paycheck.
The key to success is to be a jack of all trades / generalist, learning how to code in the prevalent languages is just the tip of the iceburg. Then you should learn scripting to tie the programs together on a specific operating / cloud system, SQL backward and forward, cloud technologies around Azure and AWS (huge opportunities here), cloud data storage such as Snowflake, networking (know all the layers), cybersecurity (integration is key here), dev and collaboration tools / methodologies (Agile, Jira, Github). Learn the leadership skills that drive how projects / initiatives are executed (delivery/project management, scrum master, etc.) Someone mentioned biz process knowledge, always a key to success.
There is no end to learning in this field - why I joined it years ago. Keep learning while being a flexible resource and you'll always have a paycheck.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 11:21 am to jkylejohnson
I'm a product of "learn to code" and now manage 2 development teams, so I can give you some advice.
Bootcamps are not worth it IMO. They're incredibly expensive and you won't learn much more than what's on youtube. I also don't think the networking is beneficial as you'll need more demonstrated experience than what you'll do in the bootcamp to get a position worth the investment.
Some of the best SWEs I've worked with are self taught because they have put in the effort to get good at what they do in their outside time. My CS grads really only do the bare minimum to get by as its only a "job" for them. When hiring juniors, I look for someone with a broad portfolio of demonstrated work that indicates they not only know the basics of coding, but are knowledgeable of APIs, cloud services like AWS or GCP, containerization, databases, etc. Most of the "good first project" examples you see are too basic. You really need to be able to build and deploy an application to not get passed over. A good example would be a sports betting mobile app that is gathering public information, simulating matches, and giving you odds for bets on future games. Something that works with video or audio is also more beneficial than just text. A basic to-do app is seen as amateur these days. You should have an active github profile or portfolio website to showcase your work. This will be the difference in landing a 50k vs 100k job.
There is far more web development work available, so it will be easier to find a job doing that, but some people don't care for it. Changing the shape of a button on a website is pretty boring, but it's easier to get your foot in the door with frontend or fullstack work. Some notable technologies are React and Angular, which have a learning curve, but you'll likely need to be competent in one framework. Look into stacks such as MEAN and MERN and know what each of them do and how they work together.
AI/ML/Datascience is super sexy right, but it's not practical to obtain these at entry level, IMO.
IF you can get good at data structures and algorithms (ie. you can solve and explain a leetcode hard in <30 minutes), you can break into big tech with very little experience, but this will take extreme dedication because people do it competitively and have been for years.
Here is a list of companies that don't do whiteboarding style interviews
Consider start ups as they'll usually take whatever they can get and you will be thrown to the wolves but learn an awful lot in the process. It'll be a rollercoaster but if you can last a year, you'll have the experience you need to make a career out of it.
Lastly, start getting involved with open source work. If you have contributions to an active project, you'll be ahead of the other applicants. Working with production software is different - reading and understanding someone's else's code can be challenging. This is a great way to get that experience and the maintainers will gladly accept the help and mentor you along the way. Best of luck.
Bootcamps are not worth it IMO. They're incredibly expensive and you won't learn much more than what's on youtube. I also don't think the networking is beneficial as you'll need more demonstrated experience than what you'll do in the bootcamp to get a position worth the investment.
Some of the best SWEs I've worked with are self taught because they have put in the effort to get good at what they do in their outside time. My CS grads really only do the bare minimum to get by as its only a "job" for them. When hiring juniors, I look for someone with a broad portfolio of demonstrated work that indicates they not only know the basics of coding, but are knowledgeable of APIs, cloud services like AWS or GCP, containerization, databases, etc. Most of the "good first project" examples you see are too basic. You really need to be able to build and deploy an application to not get passed over. A good example would be a sports betting mobile app that is gathering public information, simulating matches, and giving you odds for bets on future games. Something that works with video or audio is also more beneficial than just text. A basic to-do app is seen as amateur these days. You should have an active github profile or portfolio website to showcase your work. This will be the difference in landing a 50k vs 100k job.
There is far more web development work available, so it will be easier to find a job doing that, but some people don't care for it. Changing the shape of a button on a website is pretty boring, but it's easier to get your foot in the door with frontend or fullstack work. Some notable technologies are React and Angular, which have a learning curve, but you'll likely need to be competent in one framework. Look into stacks such as MEAN and MERN and know what each of them do and how they work together.
AI/ML/Datascience is super sexy right, but it's not practical to obtain these at entry level, IMO.
IF you can get good at data structures and algorithms (ie. you can solve and explain a leetcode hard in <30 minutes), you can break into big tech with very little experience, but this will take extreme dedication because people do it competitively and have been for years.
Here is a list of companies that don't do whiteboarding style interviews
Consider start ups as they'll usually take whatever they can get and you will be thrown to the wolves but learn an awful lot in the process. It'll be a rollercoaster but if you can last a year, you'll have the experience you need to make a career out of it.
Lastly, start getting involved with open source work. If you have contributions to an active project, you'll be ahead of the other applicants. Working with production software is different - reading and understanding someone's else's code can be challenging. This is a great way to get that experience and the maintainers will gladly accept the help and mentor you along the way. Best of luck.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 11:29 am to Porpus
quote:
Coding is one of those things where you either have the aptitude for it or you don't.
This is the absolute truth. I wouldn't spend money on a boot camp until you try a few of the free online tutorials. If that gives you the drive to learn more, then look at the boot camp option.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:05 pm to jkylejohnson
thousands of coders were recently let go, maybe tens of thousands. oversaturated market and won't change for a while.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:06 pm to BoudreauxsCousin
quote:
I’ve written an awful lot of code having worked in IT. Plenty of people, in my opinion, have the ability.
I had a professor tell me it was about 50%-50% among undergrads in his opinion. So yeah, it's still a lot of people.
quote:
The tools are so much better these days, though. I was required to take assembly language. These days, unless you’re writing drivers for hardware, you’ll never get that far down to the metal.
The tools are better, but the problems to be solved are much more difficult. That's the thing that really makes the whole "AI" thing unworkable to me: software development is not getting easier. It's been getting steadily more difficult since about 2000.
Even the most mundane corporate software tool is now a web page. You have concerns of security and concurrency that just didn't exist in the mainframe or client/server days.
The nerds have kind of taken over, too, IMO. Gone are the days when you could draw out a form in a graphical editor, double-click on a button, and get dropped into a code editor where you could pretty much just write your SQL. No, you have a front-end framework now (Javascript) talking to a back end in a much different language (C# or Java) manipulating data using another very different database language. You've probably got something like Redis caching in play, making you wonder where the data you're looking at even came from.
All of this is supposed to make things more maintainable and scalable, and though I may think we're well past the point of diminishing returns on that, the toothpaste isn't going back into the tube.
From 2000-2005 or so, when corporate shops were moving from VB, SQLWindows, Delphi, etc. to Java and C#, there was a real exodus from coding by guys who were uncomfortable with "curly brace" languages. That was nothing, though. If those guys were still around to see the whole tool stack we have now, their heads would explode.
Bottom line, we've seen a steady stream of things that were supposed to make software creation easier, and yet it has steadily become more difficult. AI will be the next failure in this area. Software development will be substantially harder 5 years from now, will employ more people, and will pay more even adjusted for inflation... because that's what's always happened.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:11 pm to jkylejohnson
Any monkey can code and frick it all up.
Learn to Test (TDD / automated testing / Continuous Delivery):
Practical Test Pyramid - Martin Fowler
Look into books and articles by Uncle Bob, Martin Fowler, & Andy Hunt
Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship Robert C. Martin
Manifesto for Software Craftmanship
Pragmatic Programmer
Manifesto for Agile Software Development
Refactoring & Design Patterns
SOLID
Learn to Test (TDD / automated testing / Continuous Delivery):
Practical Test Pyramid - Martin Fowler
Look into books and articles by Uncle Bob, Martin Fowler, & Andy Hunt
Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship Robert C. Martin
Manifesto for Software Craftmanship
Pragmatic Programmer
Manifesto for Agile Software Development
Refactoring & Design Patterns
SOLID
This post was edited on 2/13/24 at 12:16 pm
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:17 pm to Engineer
OP, while I mentioned github & volunteering briefly, Engineer gives a great employer perspective on it. Read his post carefully.
Bootcamps & certifications might get a job. Portfolios, often on GitHub, show demonstrated skill that make you stand out more. Of coure, you'll have to develop a little proficiency before you can contribute, but this is something you should bear in mind as you proceed-- how to apply the knowledge in useful, demonstrable ways.
You can google "volunteer for github projects" and get several google hits for further guidance.
One of the first I saw was this reddit thread:
LINK
which in itself has good advice and links to other useful resources, like:
firsttimersonly
which has specific advice and resources for newbies trying to learn how to contribute.
When I previously talked about becoming interested in the field and joining groups in my last post, it's because, imho, you're less likely to succeed if you just shell out $$$$ for a bootcamp and think you're going to get a good job. Do free tutorials first, join groups on whatever platform (reddit, discord, etc), find useful tips from others, build your skills and see if you're really interested without spending too much money. Then, if you find it is a good fit, consider the bootcamps, certifications, building a portfolio, etc.
I'm not a gamer myself, but another there are games that teach coding as well, which might be a little more fun to approach the subject.
eta: depending on what context your family finds you tech savvy, you might also explore engineering fields that overlap with programming / tech.
Bootcamps & certifications might get a job. Portfolios, often on GitHub, show demonstrated skill that make you stand out more. Of coure, you'll have to develop a little proficiency before you can contribute, but this is something you should bear in mind as you proceed-- how to apply the knowledge in useful, demonstrable ways.
You can google "volunteer for github projects" and get several google hits for further guidance.
One of the first I saw was this reddit thread:
LINK
which in itself has good advice and links to other useful resources, like:
firsttimersonly
which has specific advice and resources for newbies trying to learn how to contribute.
When I previously talked about becoming interested in the field and joining groups in my last post, it's because, imho, you're less likely to succeed if you just shell out $$$$ for a bootcamp and think you're going to get a good job. Do free tutorials first, join groups on whatever platform (reddit, discord, etc), find useful tips from others, build your skills and see if you're really interested without spending too much money. Then, if you find it is a good fit, consider the bootcamps, certifications, building a portfolio, etc.
I'm not a gamer myself, but another there are games that teach coding as well, which might be a little more fun to approach the subject.
eta: depending on what context your family finds you tech savvy, you might also explore engineering fields that overlap with programming / tech.
This post was edited on 2/13/24 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:23 pm to jkylejohnson
I’ve paid entry level engineers around 55k in the last 3 years. These are first job college kids. Also paid experienced service desk people around 65k transitioning to development work. The salaries can go up significantly at 3 years experience if you have a knack for it.
You might consider learning Power BI or some other business computing platform that’s programming adjacent as a first step to a tech department. What field you in now?
You might consider learning Power BI or some other business computing platform that’s programming adjacent as a first step to a tech department. What field you in now?
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:35 pm to shutterspeed
quote:
When you can code like this, get back to me.
That's how I learned....
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:40 pm to Lonnie Utah
Ai is good at copying, not creating. It is a long, long way from replacing programmers.
Do not learn to code, Learn to deconstruct concepts within thr structure of object oriented concepts. Knowing syntax of a language is irrelevant, that can be googled.
Do not learn to code, Learn to deconstruct concepts within thr structure of object oriented concepts. Knowing syntax of a language is irrelevant, that can be googled.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:44 pm to Porpus
quote:
It's not like you can just tell AI, "uh, yeah, make me an e-commerce site kind of like, Uber for taxidermy, and make it compliant with PCI and Sarbanes-Oxley and stuff."
Give it a few more years.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 12:58 pm to jkylejohnson
Don't listen to most of these responses. You can tell the posters just regurgitate random articles or podcasts.
Competent programmers know "AI" wont displace them. People think bc chatGPT can write a shitty, bugged python script that its going to replace an entire industry. Its just a language model, it doesnt understand the code its spitting out. It's just scraping the internet for written code related what your prompt is asking.
If you have little technical background. Start with javascript or python youtube videos. If you have a good technical background and want to get into the weeds, start with C to understand memory allocation and pointers.
here's a good place to start TheCodingTrain
Competent programmers know "AI" wont displace them. People think bc chatGPT can write a shitty, bugged python script that its going to replace an entire industry. Its just a language model, it doesnt understand the code its spitting out. It's just scraping the internet for written code related what your prompt is asking.
If you have little technical background. Start with javascript or python youtube videos. If you have a good technical background and want to get into the weeds, start with C to understand memory allocation and pointers.
here's a good place to start TheCodingTrain
Posted on 2/13/24 at 1:03 pm to jkylejohnson
If you do it, don't learn an object oriented language expecting to make money building a website or some API call.
Learn SQL and data processes. If you can do that and analyze and understand data you're good.
Learn SQL and data processes. If you can do that and analyze and understand data you're good.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 1:21 pm to BoogaBear
quote:
If you do it, don't learn an object oriented language expecting to make money building a website or some API call.
Learn SQL and data processes. If you can do that and analyze and understand data you're good.
Terrible advice
Posted on 2/13/24 at 1:27 pm to BoogaBear
quote:
If you do it, don't learn an object oriented language expecting to make money building a website or some API call. Learn SQL and data processes. If you can do that and analyze and understand data you're good
You should learn all those things.
Posted on 2/13/24 at 3:29 pm to BeerMoney
Thank you all so much for the advice and tips. I truly thought I’d get more smartassed non helpful answers but you guys delivered. Much appreciated. 
Posted on 2/13/24 at 9:20 pm to BeerMoney
quote:
You should learn all those things.
There's a difference, just because you know how to write SQL doesn't mean you should be developing in SQL. That's why I said data processes.
Every company has data, they want to leverage that data to make better business decisions. Front end developers are a dime a dozen and the first to get cut.
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