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Started By
Message
re: FINAL 2024 Roster for LIV Golf
Posted on 12/5/23 at 2:40 pm to lsupride87
Posted on 12/5/23 at 2:40 pm to lsupride87
quote:
If he is wrong, what changes for “flushingIt”?
Defending AMEX Champion Jon Rahm was NOT announced as part of the field this morning during media day.
Devils GC would be my guess for the new name of Rahm's team
This post was edited on 12/5/23 at 2:53 pm
1
Posted on 12/5/23 at 2:45 pm to pjk481
quote:
Does mention that some think maybe this is a shot across bow by LIV/PIF to use as leverage in negotiations as deadline looms. We will see.
The LET (Ladies European Tour) was supposed to merge with the PGA/LPGA. LET & the LPGA cancelled their merger talks two weeks ago due to last minute "additional information" which rumors are now linking the PIF to buying out LET. This would certainly put the nail in the coffin for a LIV/PGA merger if the PIF takes over LET.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 4:44 pm to MrLSU
quote:But Cantlay and Xander were announced in the field, two players you guaranteed are being announced with Rahm
Defending AMEX Champion Jon Rahm was NOT announced as part of the field this morning during media day.
So which is it?
Also of note, I most of the top guys aren’t playing the Amex this year due to schedule. Xander and Cantlay playing seems to be a pretty sure sign they aren’t going to liv.
This post was edited on 12/5/23 at 4:47 pm
Posted on 12/5/23 at 6:32 pm to lsupride87
quote:
But Cantlay and Xander were announced in the field, two players you guaranteed are being announced with Rahm
Those guys plus Jason Day would be foolish to leave for LIV right now. If they wait to announce after the Sentry then they get their PIP money. Jason Day is due $3 million, Xander is due $3 million and Cantlay is due $2 million which is now due to increase thanks to Rahm leaving behind $9 million to grab his $600 million.
This post was edited on 12/5/23 at 6:59 pm
Posted on 12/5/23 at 8:06 pm to MrLSU
quote:Ahh, ok.
Those guys plus Jason Day would be foolish to leave for LIV right now
quote:I guess I just imagined reading this
Xander, Hovland, Burns, Cantlay will be signing after Rahm’s confirms he signed paperwork yesterday.
Posted on 12/5/23 at 11:01 pm to Rodrigo7
quote:
Damn, I just want all the great golfers to compete against each other, other than the majors, that's not gonna happen
Bro, I really can’t stand people thinking tournaments like the Traveler’s is on par with majors. Like I know you want to see the best of the best but, it’s not going to happen when you have a shite product that’s essentially a monopoly in the PGAT.
Majors move the needle. Ryder Cup also moves the needle. There’s nothing else like those two. With Rahm, Cam, DJ, and Brooks on LIV, I am much more intrigued with the product. They have so many more opportunities to inject more drama into the team aspect but, it’s certainly watchable.
Posted on 12/6/23 at 12:09 am to OKtiger
quote:
Bro, I really can’t stand people thinking tournaments like the Traveler’s is on par with majors
He didn't say that but there are a lot of events on tour that aren't the Travelers that all the best players have traditionally played in: bay hill, the memorial, the players, the genesis, wells fargo, etc. That won't happen anymore if there are a bunch of defections. You'll have a large chunk of the best playing on LIV and a large chunk of the best playing on the PGA. For the fans, that sucks that we'll only be able to see those guys playing the same tournament 4 times a year. This isn't about the smaller tour events. It's about the events in totality. It's just a disengenuous argument to say, "herp, derp no one watches the john deere anyways." Yeah, no shite, but they watch a lot of tournaments that won't be as good anymore. At this point, both sides need to get over themselves, put their egos aside, and work something out. They're going to push people away from the sport IMO if they don't. Neither product will ever reach its full potential if the tours are split.
This post was edited on 12/6/23 at 12:12 am
Posted on 12/6/23 at 6:30 am to lsufball19
quote:
At this point, both sides need to get over themselves, put their egos aside, and work something out.
LIV has been trying to work something out from the beginning and the PGA tour basically took the stance "we don't negotiate with terrorists". LIV continued to press and got something done with a loose framework. It's up to the PGA to come the rest of the way. They're the ones continuously stepping on their own feet by running their mouths. They're the ones influencing OWGR, sponsors, TV deals, etc.
The problem is that you can't put the "blood money" talking point back in the bag after parroting it for 2 years.
Posted on 12/6/23 at 7:00 am to The Pirate King
All this does is hurt the game and the 4 majors will be all that matters.
Rahm won’t increase viewership in LIV. There’s one player in golf that brings viewers with him, and he’s playing maybe a tournament a month.
But good for the agents for getting these guys on both tours paid more than Patrick Mahomes with a tenth of the viewership.
Rahm won’t increase viewership in LIV. There’s one player in golf that brings viewers with him, and he’s playing maybe a tournament a month.
But good for the agents for getting these guys on both tours paid more than Patrick Mahomes with a tenth of the viewership.
Posted on 12/6/23 at 7:25 am to hehateme2285
If they are really offering him 550 million he has to take it. But it’s wild to me to spend that much money while getting nothing really in return for it. I know I know, oil, but still
Posted on 12/6/23 at 8:32 am to hehateme2285
quote:
All this does is hurt the PGA and the 4 majors will be all that matters.
Fixed it for you. I’m still convinced having some of the best players in the world playing half their tournaments in countries other than USA is good for the game of golf. Surprised there’s not a better Asian team yet.
quote:
Rahm won’t increase viewership in LIV. There’s one player in golf that brings viewers with him, and he’s playing maybe a tournament a month.
Maybe, but I’ll be more interested in watching LIV Las Vegas than the WM Open this year. At least LIV will finish their 3 rounds before Super Bowl Sunday
Posted on 12/6/23 at 9:09 am to lsupride87
quote:
If they are really offering him 550 million he has to take it. But it’s wild to me to spend that much money while getting nothing really in return for it. I know I know, oil, but still
I know they aren’t getting great viewership in the US right now, but LIV does have a business plan. Some don’t like it or don’t think it’ll work, but there is one to produce an ROI on these salaries.
Basically, like F1, the team aspect is the big business bet to produce ROI. LIV hopes that over the long run (5-10 years) they will be able to stabilize themselves and ultimately sell the 12-14 teams to outside investors. Like F1, the obvious targets are the OEMs but also likely some billionaires who want to own a golf team or apparel manufacturers (Nike and Adidas).
If they ultimately sell each for even only 200m a team, that’s 2.8billion. And odds are they will get more when you look at what teams are going for around works these days.
And secondly, if merger with PGA goes through well then that alone is a huge win. But I think they will still push the team aspect inside the PGA and continue down the path of selling those clubs
Posted on 12/6/23 at 9:12 am to pjk481
quote:I don’t think that’s close to possible. Golf would have to produce better viewership/attendance/sponsorship than the nfl and nba combined to support that
but there is one to produce an ROI on these salaries.
It isn’t feasible at all for golf to truly ever get an ROI on what LIV is paying
Posted on 12/6/23 at 10:11 am to lsupride87
quote:
I don’t think that’s close to possible. Golf would have to produce better viewership/attendance/sponsorship than the nfl and nba combined to support that
It isn’t feasible at all for golf to truly ever get an ROI on what LIV is paying
LIV's model is more global, not just US based. For context, the lowest valuation of a Formula 1 team (Williams Racing) is about 700m. The highest (Ferrari) is about 3.9 billion.
F1 is a global series traveling the world, attracting interest from wealthy fans and owners. In the US, F1 viewership of races on ESPN averaged 550k in 2018 and 1.1m in 2023.
Both well below even what the tour averages today (~2.2m on CBS for 2023 season). LIV this year averaged around 200k viewers on the CW in the US in year 2. Over a 5-10 year time horizon, there's definitely a ton of room for growth.
They are following the F1 model imo. Not saying it will work, but I do think there's a model for it to.
Additionally, Tiger's TGL virtual league sold its teams for between 25 and 100m each. And they haven't even teed off yet. IMO, they sold early to raise the capital they needed to get TGL off ground.
PIF didn't need the capital to get LIV off the ground, and instead can hold the assets (teams) to sell at higher valuation down the line.
This post was edited on 12/6/23 at 10:14 am
Posted on 12/6/23 at 10:47 am to pjk481
Look, I don’t think it’s in the galaxy of possible for golf to get so popular that paying the players billions in GUARANTEED salaries will have a positive ROI. Because that’s where liv is right now, they are in the billions spent on players
You are banking on it becoming as big as soccer….
You are banking on it becoming as big as soccer….
This post was edited on 12/6/23 at 10:48 am
Posted on 12/6/23 at 10:51 am to lsupride87
Supposedly, Rahm’s $600M figure included his 25% equity of the team.
His signing bonus is reportedly $300M.
25% equity of the team is estimated as $300M??
If there are teams that will actually be worth $1.2B then that’s a pretty good ROI on 13-14 teams.
His signing bonus is reportedly $300M.
25% equity of the team is estimated as $300M??
If there are teams that will actually be worth $1.2B then that’s a pretty good ROI on 13-14 teams.
Posted on 12/6/23 at 10:56 am to JimTiger72
quote:
If there are teams that will actually be worth $1.2B
quote:Dude come on.
If there are teams that will actually be worth $1.2B
Posted on 12/6/23 at 11:01 am to lsupride87
quote:
Look, I don’t think it’s in the galaxy of possible for golf to get so popular that paying the players billions in GUARANTEED salaries will have a positive ROI.
I mean I don't think they went into this venture expecting a quick ROI from American golf attendance. If anything this is a long term investment where they're expecting 5 or 10 years from now to get extraordinary value from the sale of the teams, international popularity, and ad dollars.
Most new leagues don't have the money to stay afloat past the initial one-year investment. The PIF does.
This post was edited on 12/6/23 at 11:05 am
Posted on 12/6/23 at 11:01 am to lsupride87
quote:
You are banking on it becoming as big as soccer….
One, not as big as soccer. As big as F1. Which is niche even on world stage and almost every team in F1 is worth over a billion dollars (lowest is Williams at 700m).
Two, as noted below, most of the big figures you see thrown around include the equity stake in the team for these Captains, which they received at a valuation put on those teams by the PIF and they won't realize until they sell their equity stake.
LIV currently has 12 teams, likely 14 teams if Rahm happens.
If we are ultra conservative, and assume they ultimately sell the teams at 100m valuations (similar to what the TGL did, and they are virtual golf that has not even started yet), that would recoup 1.4 billion.
I think they are reasonably certain, their valuations will be much higher than that over next 5-10 years. Heck, the NWSL (National Women's Soccer League in US) just sold an expansion team for 53 million and their team's valuations range from 40-180 million.
I think their expectations are reasonable. And sure, if it all fails, this is all a drop in bucket for them. But I do think they have a reasonable strategy.
Posted on 12/6/23 at 11:24 am to lsupride87
How is his deal worth $600M then if it’s a $300M signing bonus & 25% equity?
ETA: It did say it was reported that his contract was till 2029. I guess there could be a guaranteed amount per year for 5 years included.
ETA: It did say it was reported that his contract was till 2029. I guess there could be a guaranteed amount per year for 5 years included.
This post was edited on 12/6/23 at 12:30 pm
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