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re: Someone explain the Trump fraud case to me?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:23 pm to Tmcgin
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:23 pm to Tmcgin
What are you even talking about? Everything is done by appraisers. Trump doesn't tell anyone shite. The square foot of everything was done upon the appraisal. The appraisal can change and the property tax changes with it. Its literally listed on public record. I can look up any property in the United States and see what the square footage is, taxes are, last appraisal, who owns it and when they bought it. It is all public record. That judge is an idiot, he and the lawyers should all be disbarred.
0
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:28 pm to deltaland
I don't want to spend much time on this because the genesis of the suit is political in nature and as a result legal discussions are secondary to the real issue but I do want to clarify some things that people are getting wrong from a legal POV.
This is a point I have seen over and over again here. One has to understand that fraud (though there are some legal defenses) occurs the moment the loan documents are delivered to an agent of the lending institution. If you misrepresent your income/employment/assets on a loan application you have committed fraud (subject to defenses). If the lender finds the "errors" and still issues the loan based on the correct facts you have still committed fraud.
The fact the loans were paid back in full and on time does not matter in this case, further, it makes no difference that as a result of the former the banks did not suffer any damages, this is because it isn't the banks that are bringing the suit. This is a suit filed by the NY OAG in the name of the People of NY. In common law, this is called a Parens Patriae action. The public policy behind this is the people have a right to a fair marketplace.
The codified basis for the suit is NY's Executive Law.
Again I reiterate this is clearly politically motivated. That being said the company almost certainly committed fraud but the directly aggrieved parties appear to not be damaged and were/are free to modify their approach and dealings with the company. That being said if the OAG can show the pattern of fraud bringing a suit under the Executive Law is certainly legally sound, the issue here is the political nature and not the legalities of the suit.
Trump's attorneys are playing the front end of all these cases very hard which is clearly a strategy. The attorneys are eating fines and stoking the fires of ire in the trial judges. They know what they are doing and they know the consequences of what they are doing but they have a long-term plan that may well be sound in this particular case but would likely be poor in the vast majority of similar proceedings.
ETA I should point out that there are some issues with ignorance of falsity and reliance but I don't know NY's fraud statutes well enough to navigate them without research.
quote:
2. When it comes to property taxes or bank loans it doesn’t matter what Trump says or thinks it’s worth. An appraiser or assessor will determine the property value
So how is there fraud?
This is a point I have seen over and over again here. One has to understand that fraud (though there are some legal defenses) occurs the moment the loan documents are delivered to an agent of the lending institution. If you misrepresent your income/employment/assets on a loan application you have committed fraud (subject to defenses). If the lender finds the "errors" and still issues the loan based on the correct facts you have still committed fraud.
The fact the loans were paid back in full and on time does not matter in this case, further, it makes no difference that as a result of the former the banks did not suffer any damages, this is because it isn't the banks that are bringing the suit. This is a suit filed by the NY OAG in the name of the People of NY. In common law, this is called a Parens Patriae action. The public policy behind this is the people have a right to a fair marketplace.
The codified basis for the suit is NY's Executive Law.
Again I reiterate this is clearly politically motivated. That being said the company almost certainly committed fraud but the directly aggrieved parties appear to not be damaged and were/are free to modify their approach and dealings with the company. That being said if the OAG can show the pattern of fraud bringing a suit under the Executive Law is certainly legally sound, the issue here is the political nature and not the legalities of the suit.
Trump's attorneys are playing the front end of all these cases very hard which is clearly a strategy. The attorneys are eating fines and stoking the fires of ire in the trial judges. They know what they are doing and they know the consequences of what they are doing but they have a long-term plan that may well be sound in this particular case but would likely be poor in the vast majority of similar proceedings.
ETA I should point out that there are some issues with ignorance of falsity and reliance but I don't know NY's fraud statutes well enough to navigate them without research.
This post was edited on 9/27/23 at 2:44 pm
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:29 pm to deltaland
Witch
Hunt
Hunt
Posted on 9/27/23 at 2:59 pm to tango029
quote:
It's value today isn't relevant to a loan from 2011. At that time, Trump estimated its value at between 426m and 612m. Liberal estimates today put it around 300m today.
Cool. That's on the bank and their appraiser, not the borrower. And even if you calculate a 300MM value today, back to 2011 with inflation, you get roughly 220MM. Nowhere in the same galaxy as this hack judges number.
quote:
Trump inflated the value of his Mar-a-Lago club by at least 2,300%, claiming the property assessed by the county between $18 million and $27.6 million
LOL, the tax assessed value?!? GTFO. If tax assessed values were ever used for mortgages, every homeowner in America would be in jail.
This post was edited on 9/27/23 at 3:22 pm
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:01 pm to AubieinNC2009
Lol imagine thinking you can get millions of dollars in loans from a bank based on your word. You know how I know you don’t work in the private sector? Banks have appraisers that do their own due diligence when underwriting loans.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:08 pm to deltaland
quote:
Someone explain the Trump fraud case to me?
More BS to hurt Trump, his polling will probably go up another 5-10 points. No one is buying this BS except those with TDS and Dumbocrats.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:09 pm to ManBearSharkReb
the partisan's blind desire to reflexively believe all criminal accusations against trump requires the full suspension of reality.
Trump is a Russian super spy
Trump is a serial sex criminal
Trump is a fascist revolutionary
Trump duped the most powerful banks in the world by simply fibbing
Trump is a Russian super spy
Trump is a serial sex criminal
Trump is a fascist revolutionary
Trump duped the most powerful banks in the world by simply fibbing
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:46 pm to Obtuse1
Does anyone really think that Trump filled out those loan applications himself rather than his lawyers and accountants?
This just another demprog witch hunt based on "show me the man and I'll show you the crime."
This just another demprog witch hunt based on "show me the man and I'll show you the crime."
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:51 pm to Vacherie Saint
Since this is not a murder case, what about statute of limitation on this pile of get Trump BS?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:52 pm to ItzMe1972
Looks like a rabid consumer of the phallus.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:53 pm to deltaland
Democrats are afraid of trump as are GOPe
Deep state gonna deep state
Deep state gonna deep state
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:54 pm to Tmcgin
...idiot
Posted on 9/27/23 at 3:56 pm to Obtuse1
What if the numbers used were independent appraisals? Just because a judge doesn’t agree doesn’t mean the numbers are wrong. Wouldn’t that have to prove he intentionally was trying to misguide the bank?
I don’t know the answers. I am legit curious.
I don’t know the answers. I am legit curious.
This post was edited on 9/27/23 at 4:00 pm
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:05 pm to Houag80
Give the media a few days to convince the idiots this is all on the up and up and this judge is saving Democracy. No shite. That will be the message to the village idiots to soak right up….and they will.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:05 pm to TDTOM
Appraisals are opinions of value.
Depends on if the appraisals were based on false information.
Depends on if the appraisals were based on false information.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:18 pm to AGGIES
quote:
Appraisals are opinions of value.
Ok?
quote:
Depends on if the appraisals were based on false information.
What do you mean? An appraiser shows up looks around, measures, looks at comps (how many comps does Mara Lago have) and provide an appraised value. Where does false info come in?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:25 pm to ItzMe1972
Enough said.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:27 pm to Auburn1968
The
quote:. The parties consented to increase the statute of limitations due to disputes in discovery
e this is not a murder case, what about statute of limitation on this pile of get Trump BS?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:34 pm to TDTOM
On just the mar a lago question, there are no bank appraisals in the record. For summary judgment, the state put in the tax assessment. Trumps defense put in an expert witness statement that indicated he could find a buyer right now; however, the expert did not opine on value. If there were bank appraisals neither party offered them. The judge disregarded the expert statement due to lack of definite ness and made the determination based on 2300% percent increase from the values in the record (namely the then tax appraisal and the Trump owned company’s statement of value). The judge did not make a finding on the current or past value of the property. Similar analysis with different facts were performed on other properties
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:36 pm to deltaland
The judge thinks Mar-A-Lago is worth $10M. A well known Miami realtor says he would list it for $300M.
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