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Started By
Message
25% billionaire tax?
Posted on 9/15/23 at 12:01 pm
Posted on 9/15/23 at 12:01 pm
@POTUS tweeted this today
We already have a 37% top federal income tax rate. Taxing net worth/unrealized gains is problematic to say least. Does fed provide refund when values drop in future? Is this a one time thing or do they stop once the billionaires' assets are depleted
to some arbitrarily designated acceptable level. How would this impact markets? I assume few actual liquidation events because they'd just use buy-borrow-die method to borrow funds to pay taxes but eventually that becomes untenable at 25% annually. I thought this was never going anywhere and was surprised when Yellen mentioned it but is it gaining real traction? Posting for economic discussion not political bashing or I'd have gone to cess pool that is PT.
quote:x.com
It’s time billionaires paid at least a 25% minimum tax.
We already have a 37% top federal income tax rate. Taxing net worth/unrealized gains is problematic to say least. Does fed provide refund when values drop in future? Is this a one time thing or do they stop once the billionaires' assets are depleted
to some arbitrarily designated acceptable level. How would this impact markets? I assume few actual liquidation events because they'd just use buy-borrow-die method to borrow funds to pay taxes but eventually that becomes untenable at 25% annually. I thought this was never going anywhere and was surprised when Yellen mentioned it but is it gaining real traction? Posting for economic discussion not political bashing or I'd have gone to cess pool that is PT.
This post was edited on 9/15/23 at 12:11 pm
9
Posted on 9/15/23 at 12:05 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
What does that mean? Ok income? Or assets
Posted on 9/15/23 at 12:10 pm to thelawnwranglers
Well it can't be income he's talking about since that already exceeds 25% and billionaires dont necessarily have large incomes.
I suspect most people will assume its income tax and think it's a great idea. Based on X replies thats already happening. Unfortunately few people understand the basics or marginal versus effective income tax rates much less capital gains rates, mark to market and unrealized gains.
I suspect most people will assume its income tax and think it's a great idea. Based on X replies thats already happening. Unfortunately few people understand the basics or marginal versus effective income tax rates much less capital gains rates, mark to market and unrealized gains.
This post was edited on 9/15/23 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 9/15/23 at 12:13 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
Sounds like politics that the average Joe can always agree with.
Would expect zero real changes
Would expect zero real changes
Posted on 9/15/23 at 12:25 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
quote:
TorchtheFlyingTiger
Accidental down vote
It sounds good like you said
Lol not sure what changed
Posted on 9/15/23 at 12:56 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
Can I also sign up for a 25% tax instead of what I'm paying now??
Posted on 9/15/23 at 1:14 pm to GEAUXT
You're above the 24% federal income tax bracket? Nice income if so, well done!
This would presumably be a wealth tax in addition to the existing income tax rate. I guess they could not tax the income portion but that makes little sense.
Would Buffett, Musk, Bezos have to start liquidating assets or would lenders let them just borrow against shares. At some point it becomes unsustainable though. Would a resulting sell off by billionaires flood market with shares and create major market correction or worse? Who buys all the shares if so? Seems like a buying opportunity or wealthy foreign investors not subject to this tax. So, we force US billionaires to sell, hurt average US stock holders, and shares get bought up at reduced valuations?
This would presumably be a wealth tax in addition to the existing income tax rate. I guess they could not tax the income portion but that makes little sense.
Would Buffett, Musk, Bezos have to start liquidating assets or would lenders let them just borrow against shares. At some point it becomes unsustainable though. Would a resulting sell off by billionaires flood market with shares and create major market correction or worse? Who buys all the shares if so? Seems like a buying opportunity or wealthy foreign investors not subject to this tax. So, we force US billionaires to sell, hurt average US stock holders, and shares get bought up at reduced valuations?
Posted on 9/15/23 at 1:46 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
quote:
We already have a 37% top federal income tax rate.
Multi-Millionaires/Billionaires do not pay 37% on their income. Most is capital gains, passive income etc.
When Mitt Romney ran for president and stated he averaged 13.6% per year. Warren Buffett is similar.
It is ridiculous that many people in the middle class pay more of their income than them.
This post was edited on 9/15/23 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 9/15/23 at 1:48 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
He is talking about income. High Net worth individuals by and large pay no where near the percentage Peon W-2 earners pay.
Posted on 9/15/23 at 2:21 pm to lsu13lsu
In that case aren't they subject to 20% LTCG rate plus 3.8% Net Investment Income Tax (NIIT)?
I'd like to think you're right that it is just increasing LTCG for them to 25%. But I remember watching Yellen's confirmation hearing (yes, I'm a finance nerd) she was asked about the idea of taxing individuals based on assets and gave an answer that alluded to issurles assessing market values but didn't rule out the idea. I found that surprising at the time but chalked it up to staying in her lane as an appointee not endorsing future legislative tax policy. I'll try to find the clip.
I'd like to think you're right that it is just increasing LTCG for them to 25%. But I remember watching Yellen's confirmation hearing (yes, I'm a finance nerd) she was asked about the idea of taxing individuals based on assets and gave an answer that alluded to issurles assessing market values but didn't rule out the idea. I found that surprising at the time but chalked it up to staying in her lane as an appointee not endorsing future legislative tax policy. I'll try to find the clip.
This post was edited on 9/15/23 at 2:30 pm
Posted on 9/15/23 at 2:51 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
quote:
It’s time billionaires paid at least a 25% minimum tax.
There are no individuals in the US making a billion dollars a year. The federal government can only tax income, not wealth and most of what billionaires have is wealth.
The only way he's going to "tax billionaires" as a class is if he breaks the Constitution and begins basing federal taxes off wealth instead of income.
Posted on 9/15/23 at 2:56 pm to lsu13lsu
I thinK he is talking about unrealized gains like last time he proposed it for the 2023 budget (up from 20% then.)
This new 25% plan was floated back in March and I missed it. No surprise it isnt being widely discussed.
Forbes
quote:CNBC The Hill
Biden’s 2023 federal budget plan proposed a 20% levy on households with the same level of wealth, applying to “total income,” including regular earnings and so-called unrealized gains.
This new 25% plan was floated back in March and I missed it. No surprise it isnt being widely discussed.
quote:
Biden’s proposal for a 25% minimum tax rate is also expected to apply to unrealized gains.
Forbes
This post was edited on 9/15/23 at 2:59 pm
Posted on 9/15/23 at 2:58 pm to Bard
quote:That seems to be exactly what he is proposing. What else would you call a mark to market scheme to tax unrealized gains?
The only way he's going to "tax billionaires" as a class is if he breaks the Constitution and begins basing federal taxes off wealth instead of income.
Posted on 9/15/23 at 3:37 pm to lsu13lsu
quote:
It is ridiculous that many people in the middle class pay more of their income than them.
It's ridiculous if you're an idiot.
Posted on 9/15/23 at 3:43 pm to lsu13lsu
This post was edited on 1/26/24 at 8:40 am
Posted on 9/15/23 at 3:49 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
quote:
That seems to be exactly what he is proposing. What else would you call a mark to market scheme to tax unrealized gains?
This is why they are trying to get a worldwide minimum tax, to keep Billionaires from fleeing to tax havens. That won't work, however. There will always be countries open to the wealthy.
The ultra-rich will find a way. If the taxes are too egregious, they will keep their wealth (and maybe themselves) overseas.
Posted on 9/15/23 at 3:51 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
quote:
As of November 2022, a combined value of 4.48 trillion U.S. dollars was held by billionaires living in the United States.
The United States spends over $6 trillion per year. You could take every single dime from every American billionaire and it would fund the government for 8 months.
We don't have an income problem, we have a spending problem.
This post was edited on 9/15/23 at 3:53 pm
Posted on 9/15/23 at 8:28 pm to TorchtheFlyingTiger
Taxing wealth is unconstitutional.
This post was edited on 9/15/23 at 8:28 pm
Posted on 9/16/23 at 12:07 am to TorchtheFlyingTiger
why are you guys even discussing this. Joe is not serious about this. it is nothing but propaganda. any discussion beyond it as propaganda is just dumb. Joe doesn't even know what he says.
Posted on 9/16/23 at 7:34 am to lsuconnman
good for him
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