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Posted on 8/3/22 at 2:14 pm to turkish
quote:
water among the ice cannot be colder than 32 degrees
Saltwater freezes below 32*
Posted on 8/3/22 at 2:14 pm to DingleBarry
try it with diff ices use gas station Ice and then use pellet ice you will see a huge diff.
Posted on 8/3/22 at 2:35 pm to ConfusedHawgInMO
quote:
I reckon the cold water is still colder than the air would be, but I've never tested that.
In general, changes in water temperature take much longer than changes in air temperature. So the water would be and remain colder than the air. Question is whether it is significant enough to make a fricking difference. If the ice chest is staying put, leave the water. If you have to move the thing, drain the bitch.
Posted on 8/3/22 at 4:49 pm to SmokinBurger
I take large (4 to 5 quart) plastic containers with lid and fill with water. Place two of these containers in your freezer to freeze solid. When need, place in ice chest. Stays cold longer without the mess. When you return home place the container back in freezer for next time. There is only a little moisture in the chest to be wiped out.
Posted on 8/3/22 at 5:18 pm to Atlas_Shrugged
quote:
The way thermodynamics works when you start with all ice and it begins to melt the water/ice mixture is in equilibrium and the same temperature during the phase change only when all the ice is gone does the temperature of the water begin to rise.
This is true, and doesn't really address the question.
At the core this is a heat transfer and heat storage question. Heat loss is increased by the difference in temperature between two objects. So by draining the water the level of cold in your ice chest drops and the rate of heat loss decreases (less cold surface area). (A little bit - the air above the water is still pretty cold).
But the cold water has a MUCH higher capacity to retain the cold than the air above it in the chest. Easy answer - you keep the cold water in the chest.
Posted on 8/3/22 at 5:55 pm to Tigris
The core of the question is enthalpy of phase change, and heat transfer. Melted water has blown its wad from a thermodynamic standpoint, it is then only acting as a very efficient heat transfer fluid, allowing heat from the wall of the container to be carried to the ice. If the goal is to reduce ice melt, drain the water and insulate it in air. If the goal is to quickly get something cold, leave the water in.
Timelapse of cups melting
Timelapse of cups melting
This post was edited on 8/3/22 at 6:15 pm
Posted on 8/3/22 at 7:09 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
Melted water has blown its wad from a thermodynamic standpoint, it is then only acting as a very efficient heat transfer fluid
Not exactly true, water has blown most of its wad when compared to ice, but it still has a much higher ability to store cold temperatures than air does. It takes roughly 3,100 times as much heat to increase a volume of water 1 degree compared to a volume of air. Per weight it's about 4 times as much, but water weighs so much more that that is basically irrelevant.
Don't throw away cold water, it will still keep the chest cold longer than a chest full of air. And yes, water is a better heat transfer medium. But with the heat capacity of water vs. air that becomes a moot point.
Posted on 8/3/22 at 7:29 pm to Tigris
quote:
And yes, water is a better heat transfer medium. But with the heat capacity of water vs. air that becomes a moot point.
No it doesn’t, and the proof is right there in front of you in that video. Surrounding the ice in water dramatically increases the surface area that’s in contact with the wall, where the heat is entering. That’s the entire point.
Posted on 8/3/22 at 10:29 pm to Clyde Tipton
Was thinking the same thing.
I miss having a duck place, damn these hot cropping, short stopping, DU net bastards for taking my ducks!
Seriously though can we please get another mini ice age so LA weather will be like NC and the geeenheads will come back.
I miss having a duck place, damn these hot cropping, short stopping, DU net bastards for taking my ducks!
Seriously though can we please get another mini ice age so LA weather will be like NC and the geeenheads will come back.
This post was edited on 8/3/22 at 10:35 pm
Posted on 8/4/22 at 7:11 am to DingleBarry
You really should drain it. Even cold water conducts cold away from ice much more efficiently than cold air.
I travel to our hunting lease for a week at a time. Tried a bunch of things over the years but by far the best thing is to use large blocks of ice and big cubes.
Frozen 1 gallon jugs of ice worked pretty well until I discovered silicone ice block molds. Volume of water is about 1.8 gallons or so each. I freeze 2 blocks for each cooler. I put them in and then fill with cubed ice... never crushed ice. I can be gone for a week and come back and still have a reasonable amount of ice left. Blocks are 3/4 melted after 6 days in hot to warm temps.
Does not matter if Yeti, Coleman, Igloo. Results are about the same. I have found bigger ice is the key.
One of the guys on the ranch swears by dry ice in his spare cooler. He fills his coolers and then puts 3-4 pounds of dry ice on top and shuts the cooler and does not open it until his primary cooler needs more ice in a few days. He seems to do okay on ice. You just can't put food in a cooler with ice and dry ice unless you don't care that whatever food you put in that cooler is frozen like a rock for 2 days until dry ice is gone.
I travel to our hunting lease for a week at a time. Tried a bunch of things over the years but by far the best thing is to use large blocks of ice and big cubes.
Frozen 1 gallon jugs of ice worked pretty well until I discovered silicone ice block molds. Volume of water is about 1.8 gallons or so each. I freeze 2 blocks for each cooler. I put them in and then fill with cubed ice... never crushed ice. I can be gone for a week and come back and still have a reasonable amount of ice left. Blocks are 3/4 melted after 6 days in hot to warm temps.
Does not matter if Yeti, Coleman, Igloo. Results are about the same. I have found bigger ice is the key.
One of the guys on the ranch swears by dry ice in his spare cooler. He fills his coolers and then puts 3-4 pounds of dry ice on top and shuts the cooler and does not open it until his primary cooler needs more ice in a few days. He seems to do okay on ice. You just can't put food in a cooler with ice and dry ice unless you don't care that whatever food you put in that cooler is frozen like a rock for 2 days until dry ice is gone.
Posted on 8/4/22 at 8:22 am to Atlas_Shrugged
quote:Dang - beat me to it.
The way thermodynamics works when you start with all ice and it begins to melt the water/ice mixture is in equilibrium and the same temperature during the phase change only when all the ice is gone does the temperature of the water begin to rise.
Posted on 8/4/22 at 9:16 am to DingleBarry
quote:
Running an insulated Magellan
We still doing this stupid shite?
Posted on 8/4/22 at 9:35 am to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
The core of the question is enthalpy of phase change, and heat transfer. Melted water has blown its wad from a thermodynamic standpoint, it is then only acting as a very efficient heat transfer fluid, allowing heat from the wall of the container to be carried to the ice. If the goal is to reduce ice melt, drain the water and insulate it in air. If the goal is to quickly get something cold, leave the water in.
You are leaving out an important detail though, and that’s if everything is already cold inside the cooler and that you have 3rd party items keeping cold that your want to maintain the water.
If all you are doing is trying to keep ice as ice for say adding to a cup, then yes dump the water you are correct.
But ice with the melted water will keep the temperature colder longer then ice and air with the water constantly draining.
So:
Icey water with drinks/ food= keep water
Ice just for ice- dump water
ETA: remember if you remove the cold water, it’s then replaced with hot air. So while your actual frozen ice will last longer with water drained, the ability to keep say beer cans cold is diminished.
This post was edited on 8/4/22 at 9:40 am
Posted on 8/4/22 at 9:53 am to baldona
quote:Something about this just seems wrong though.
remember if you remove the cold water, it’s then replaced with hot air. So while your actual frozen ice will last longer with water drained, the ability to keep say beer cans cold is diminished.
Posted on 8/4/22 at 10:48 am to AlxTgr
quote:
Something about this just seems wrong though.
Why? You are replacing 30 degree water with 70-95* air.
Posted on 8/4/22 at 10:59 am to baldona
quote:
You are leaving out an important detail though, and that’s if everything is already cold inside the cooler and that you have 3rd party items keeping cold that your want to maintain the water.
Everything depends on the question asked and what OP specifically asked was how to preserve ice longer, but yes liquid water will “refrigerate” better than air by keeping the temp more consistent in the container, for the exact same reason that it causes the ice to melt. It’s transferring heat more quickly to the ice, by making the heat transfer more efficient. If a marble were sitting in those cups above, the ones sitting in water would probably be cool (but greater than 32F) longer than a marble sitting next to some ice but mostly in contact with warm air, no debate there. Of course at that point you could cover the marble with the remaining ice, like you could your groceries while camping, and they would then stay colder longer. All kinds of practical things you can do to make this argument not even worth having, because ultimately insulation of the cooler is the single biggest factor for heat getting in and melting anything, water just helps it flow once it’s through the wall.
I dunk fish/deer meat in an ice slurry to cool quickly. I then drain the water once everything is cold to preserve the ice around it as long as possible. That’s the entire thing in a nutshell.
Posted on 8/4/22 at 11:03 am to baldona
quote:
You are replacing 30 degree water with 70-95* air.
The enthalpy of that air is tiny in comparison, and the volume drawn in is not significantly contributing unless you’re blowing a fan into it.
This all makes a lot more sense if you understand the relative amounts of energy it takes to make something change phase. It’s huge compared to just raising its temperature. That shite’s boring, but it’s out there if you care to find it.
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