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Started By
Message
re: Supreme Court Blocks Biden's Vaccine Mandate
Posted on 1/14/22 at 10:02 am to Wednesday
Posted on 1/14/22 at 10:02 am to Wednesday
quote:
I think the effectiveness is relevant to whether there is an evidentiary record supporting the requirement. If they can’t prove it will meet the administrative purpose, the rule is an abuse of discretion
The government trots out experts and studies constantly to attempt to show that the vaccines are effective in preventing severe illness or hospitalization. Those alone will easily be able to meet the administrative justification bar, which is incredibly low for the government in this arena.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 10:05 am to Wednesday
quote:
These mandates have no basis in fact or in law. And without demonstrating that a vaccinated nurse is somehow less likely to infect a patient - the audacity of the government mandating them is ridiculous.
You can say that all you want, it will not make it true.
All the government has to do is say that the vaccines decrease hospitalizations, or show that vaccines even slightly prevent the risk of transmission, and they'll be well clear of the bar. They simply DO--under current law--have broad authority here, especially with the federal strings attached to the medicare and medicaid funding.
Again, whether the vaccine actually works or actually prevents transmission is not at issue here, and whether it should be mandated will never be the issue in a legal sense. That will ALWAYS be a policy determination that is left to the government provided the government meets the very low standard for administrative deference.
This post was edited on 1/14/22 at 10:08 am
Posted on 1/14/22 at 10:10 am to BenDover
quote:
Reading the 3 dissenting opinions, they seemed filled with emotion and that's frightening.
I thought the same thing... And I'm still pissed off
Posted on 1/14/22 at 10:21 am to Nutriaitch
quote:
This case did not even try to challenge the existing law. Just whether or not this mandate falls under that existing rule. And it clearly does. If you want to argue that the existing rule needs to be changed/abolished/amended/etc. fine. Thats a different discussion.
You said they have a right to choose to work for a different clinic/hospital and my point is that since Obamacare was forced upon the medical community it’s not really an option to just simply work for another facility when they’re almost all governed by Medicare/Medicaid.
This post was edited on 1/14/22 at 10:32 am
Posted on 1/14/22 at 10:26 am to bbvdd
quote:
Supreme Court Blocks Biden's Vaccine Mandate
This post was edited on 3/23/22 at 8:11 am
Posted on 1/14/22 at 10:29 am to Indefatigable
quote:
All the government has to do is say that the vaccines decrease hospitalizations, or show that vaccines even slightly prevent the risk of transmission, and they'll be well clear of the bar. They simply DO--under current law--have broad authority here, especially with the federal strings attached to the medicare and medicaid funding.
Which would be a lie. Most people in the hospitals did get the injection and some are double jabbed.... but classified as unvaccinated.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 10:51 am to LSUAngelHere1
quote:
You said they have a right to choose to work for a different clinic/hospital and my point is that since Obamacare was forced upon the medical community it’s not really an option to just simply work for another facility when they’re almost all governed by Medicare/Medicaid.
i'll concede that I do not know how many places do/don't accept it.
i do know that participation in the program is voluntary. Meaning the facilities have the option to not participate.
I have seen signs in places saying they do not accept them (did not feel the need to log those places into my memory bank), so i do know at least some such places do exist.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 11:00 am to Kjnstkmn
quote:
Nice. I know a bunch of loudmouths here got them some erections over trying to discredit Q, however the story of Q is still being written.
I will say it, Future Proves Past. We are actually almost to where these people (Democrats) will not be able to walk down the street.
Still IN!!!!!
Posted on 1/14/22 at 11:02 am to SlickRick55
quote:
the liberal judges have flipped to the other side just because of that?
100% certain. After reading their dissent, they are truly political puppets.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 11:13 am to Wednesday
quote:
What evidence did Biden present that the vaccine was necessary to promote PATIENT health, in light of the now relatively undisputed fact that it doesn’t prevent transmission by vaccinated staff to patients?
It's not up to the SCOTUS to judge if the vaccine works or not as that was not the case presented to them.
This particular case was only about "does he have the authority" to mandate the vaccine. Both Louisiana and Missouri contend that the Secretary of Health and Hospitals did not have the authority to issue this mandate. Not whether or not this particular mandate was worth a shite or not.
the wording of the authority Congress gave the secretary is pretty vague and broad:
quote:
Congress has authorized the Secretary to impose conditions on the receipt of Medicaid and Medicare funds that “the Secretary finds necessary in the interest of the health and safety of individuals who are furnished services.”
Congress very clearly gives him the authority to determine if this vaccine is necessary and to mandate it.
Everything outside of the "can he" is window dressing.
Does it work, or not work was not the question presented to the court, so it was not answered.
How many people does this effect/not effect was not the question presented to the court, so it was not answered.
How easy is it to find employment outside of this mandates reach was not the question asked of the court, so it was not answered.
They were asked "Does the secretary have the authority to issue a vaccine mandate?"
Not "Do you agree with this particular vaccine mandate?"
Not "Is this particular mandate different from other vaccine mandates."
Not "Does this mandate even accomplish anything."
Simply "Can he actually issue this mandate?"
and the answer to that question is, yes.
Congress gives him the authority to issue mandates such as this one.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 11:18 am to DMAN1968
quote:
Pretty sure the Federal government gets the money from the people.
So what am I choosing again?
the congressmen who create the rules
Posted on 1/14/22 at 11:35 am to DarthRebel
quote:
100% certain. After reading their dissent, they are truly political puppets.
Well, that is truly sick and pathetic then.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 12:21 pm to DarthRebel
quote:
100% certain. After reading their dissent, they are truly political puppets.
agree they only vaguely touched upon any legal reasoning why the OSHA mandate should be upheld.
It's mostly just COVID-19 fear porn.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 12:38 pm to Wednesday
Hi Wednesday! I always greatly appreciate your legal expertise when shared with this board. You always provide great insight, and you and I are definitely on the same page with things.
My question to you is... Do you know anything about exactly who and what the Healthcare Workers mandate will affect?
I'm a Sports Medicine physician in S. Alabama. We work mostly with athletes, but since we also do some physical medicine, we do have a few Medicare patients. I am not able to find, at least yet, any concrete information on whether or not this is going to affect me and my practice.
I have NOT taken the shot, nor will I. Before going into Sports Medicine, I studied and worked some as a molecular biochemist. Specifically, I worked in cancer research, but I did a lot of work and study on the immune system, and a decent bit in microbiology. I learned enough then, to know that I DO NOT WANT anything to do with these shots.
Thanks for your help!
My question to you is... Do you know anything about exactly who and what the Healthcare Workers mandate will affect?
I'm a Sports Medicine physician in S. Alabama. We work mostly with athletes, but since we also do some physical medicine, we do have a few Medicare patients. I am not able to find, at least yet, any concrete information on whether or not this is going to affect me and my practice.
I have NOT taken the shot, nor will I. Before going into Sports Medicine, I studied and worked some as a molecular biochemist. Specifically, I worked in cancer research, but I did a lot of work and study on the immune system, and a decent bit in microbiology. I learned enough then, to know that I DO NOT WANT anything to do with these shots.
Thanks for your help!
Posted on 1/14/22 at 12:45 pm to Nutriaitch
From my employer, sent out 20 minutes ago:
quote:I guess they didn't care for Joe's begging of companies to voluntarily mandate his lawless mandate.
As you may be aware, various COVID-19 vaccination mandates potentially applicable to our business have been the subject of recent court challenge and litigation. While the U.S. Supreme Court recently blocked enforcement of the OSHA vaccine requirement, the vaccine mandate applicable to federal contractors (and thus our operations) remains undecided.
As of this date, the federal contractor mandate is pending in U.S. federal courts and the enforcement deadline, should this mandate ultimately be upheld, has been delayed. Our position is that we will comply with federal, state and local regulations regarding vaccine mandates as they go into effect.
However, noting that these mandates have not gone into effect, we will not be taking any actions with respect to employees who are not in compliance with the previously announced federal vaccine mandate deadline unless required to do so under applicable law. Currently, that law and deadline has not been cleared and thusly, we will sit on our hands in this regard.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 1:34 pm to Nutriaitch
quote:
i'll concede that I do not know how many places do/don't accept it.
i do know that participation in the program is voluntary. Meaning the facilities have the option to not participate.
I have seen signs in places saying they do not accept them (did not feel the need to log those places into my memory bank), so i do know at least some such places do exist.
The information is VERY difficult to find so someone please correct me if I'm wrong but here is what I pulled from CMS.gov
Total Hospitals in the US in 2019: 6,090
Total CMS certified Hospitals in the US in 2019: 6,023
So there were 67 hospitals in the entire country that did not accept Medicare/Medicaid patients in 2019.
Some might say that constitutes a monopoly.
Technically yes, every hospital healthcare worker who does not want to be subject to the mandate could quit their CMS hospital and go work at a non-CMS hospital. Or hospitals could opt out of CMS, instead going strictly to cash pay/private insurance. If they did opt out of CMS, they would also no longer be subject to EMTALA, requiring them to assess & stabilize anyone presenting to an ER...
Any of those options would have huge ramifications, but it's almost like CMS isn't afraid of that happening because they have a monopoly on hospitals.
Posted on 1/14/22 at 1:42 pm to 14&Counting
about the healthcare ruling, the majority opinion stated that healthcare workers are obligated to the vax because it protects against transmission to their patients. The obvious problem with the statement is that the latest science confirms that the vaccines do not protect against transmission. So the SCOTUS fails on that misinformation. Maybe that was a bone thrown to Sotomayor
Posted on 1/14/22 at 2:43 pm to Lightning
[quote]CMS isn't afraid of that happening because they have a monopoly on hospitals.
Case Mix Index (CMI).
Case Mix Index (CMI).
Posted on 1/14/22 at 2:56 pm to bizeagle
quote:
The obvious problem with the statement is that the latest science confirms that the vaccines do not protect against transmission. So the SCOTUS fails on that misinformation.
One day people will understand that the issue before SCOTUS this time concerned the authority of the government to enact the mandate. NOT the merits of it, whether it’s advisable, whether it works, or anything else.
That day has not yet come.
This post was edited on 1/14/22 at 2:57 pm
Posted on 1/14/22 at 3:03 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
One day people will understand that the issue before SCOTUS this time concerned the authority of the government to enact the mandate. NOT the merits of it, whether it’s advisable, whether it works, or anything else.
this is the point i was trying to get across too.
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