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If this is just the girl, Ingalls, and Newall doing drugs and having a devil's threesome, then there is no real risk of rape charges.

Why I believe the text messages creates exposure to criminal liability (not guilt) is not only because of what it says, but who sent it, when it was sent, and what the sender did prior to sending it. Apparently Ingalls also posted a picture of the girl in the chat:

quote:

Ingalls is reportedly the one who shared a picture of Doe in a fraternity group chat on Snapchat and told the others they could “walk in and whip it out.
NY Post

So what does the picture show? Is she passed out? Is she spread eagle and beckoning?

The text message is a piece of circumstantial evidence that could be used in a rape prosecution.


You've explained why you think it is evidence of a continuation of the party. The ultimate outcome will depend on the context in which it is framed.
I think it is clear in both the statement and the lawsuit that she did ketamine with Ingalls and Newall before having sex the first time:

Statement:

quote:

Male Number 2 “asked [Jane Doe] if she wanted to do more Ketamine.” At that, Jane Doe remembered “that [she] had taken Ketamine at some point on the couch with [Male Number 1 and Male Number 2] during this night” but she could not remember “where or when that took place.”

Jane Doe thought that she “had already done Ketamine once so why not do it a second time.”



Lawsuit:
quote:

152. While on the couch, Defendant INGALLS and NEWELL began passing around a plastic bag containing a white, powdery substance claimed to be Ketamine, a dissociative anesthetic with hallucinogenic properties.
153. Defendants INGALLS and NEWELL then pressured Plaintiff into snorting the alleged Ketamine with them, a drug she had never done before.
154. During this time, Defendant INGALLS and NEWELL also plied Plaintiff with marijuana and “Jamaican Liquor” believed to be some type of high-proof rum.
155. Soon after, Defendant INGALLS and NEWELL began engaging in sexual acts with Plaintiff, all without her consent.



There is a picture of the text message in the lawsuit. it was sent at 1:42 AM by one of the initial sex-havers/drug users. He had intoxicated her at that point. He knew she was intoxicated and invited others to have sex with her. I haven't looked at a rape statute in a while, but i think any penetration by anything qualifies. So that he got someone else to have sex with a girl he knew to be intoxicated could be rape.
The girl's lawsuit is also online.

quote:

143. Around 11 PM, Plaintiff decided to leave Lot 10 and stumbled alone to CHI PHI NATIONAL’s Xi Chapter fraternity house on CORNELL’s campus, located at 107 Edgemoor Ln, Ithaca, New York 14850, to hang out with her friend, Defendant INGALLS.
144. When Plaintiff arrived at XI CHAPTER’s fraternity house, Plaintiff was visibly intoxicated as she had consumed about 10 standard drinks within the past 3 hours.
145. Plaintiff was let into XI CHAPTER’s fraternity house by three or four members of the fraternity who had been standing by the front door.
146. Therein, Plaintiff saw Defendant INGALLS, who greeted Plaintiff and gave her a beer.
147. Plaintiff and Defendant INGALLS then danced together in the main room of the fraternity house.
148. After dancing, Defendant INGALLS pulled Plaintiff off to a quieter area and propositioned her with having a threesome with her and another one of his fraternity brothers.
149. In her drunken state, Plaintiff was incapable of consenting to this proposition.
150. Despite being incapable of consent, Defendant INGALLS then led Plaintiff to the upstairs of the fraternity house and left her with Alex Vega, another XI CHAPTER member.
151. After speaking with Alex for some time, Defendant INGALLS returned and led Plaintiff to another room down the hall, where Defendant NEWELL was sitting on a couch.
152. While on the couch, Defendant INGALLS and NEWELL began passing around a plastic bag containing a white, powdery substance claimed to be Ketamine, a dissociative anesthetic with hallucinogenic properties.
153. Defendants INGALLS and NEWELL then pressured Plaintiff into snorting the alleged Ketamine with them, a drug she had never done before.
154. During this time, Defendant INGALLS and NEWELL also plied Plaintiff with marijuana and “Jamaican Liquor” believed to be some type of high-proof rum.
155. Soon after, Defendant INGALLS and NEWELL began engaging in sexual acts with Plaintiff, all without her consent.
156. During the assault, Defendant INGALLS forced oral sex on Plaintiff while Defendant NEWELL forced vaginal intercourse on her from behind.
157. Throughout the assault, Defendant NEWELL slapped Plaintiff on the buttocks multiple times, resulting in bruising.
158. At one point, Defendant INGALLS could no longer maintain an erection, so he stopped participating and told the other two that he was going to take a nap and proceeded to get up, move to a bed, and sleep.
159. Defendant NEWELL then began reaching for her vagina with his hand multiple times, and each time, Plaintiff pushed his hand away.
160. Soon after, Defendant LOPES entered the room, grabbed Plaintiff away from Defendant NEWELL, and began kissing her, while Defendant NEWELL groped her from behind, specifically reaching for her vagina.
161. Defendant LOPES and NEWELL then placed Plaintiff on a bed and the two men began having sex with Plaintiff, initiating another assault, all without Plaintiff’s consent.
162. At approximately 1:42 AM, Defendant NEWELL sent a message into the XI CHAPTER’s member Snapchat group entitled “Chi Phi Actives”, in which the active fraternity members are present, claiming there was “free pussy” upstairs, referring to Plaintiff thereat.
163. In doing so, Defendant NEWELL organized and encouraged other XI CHAPTER members to join in on the gang rape of Plaintiff in the XI CHAPTER fraternity house.
164. At this point, multiple other members of XI CHAPTER entered the room and Plaintiff retreated under the covers of the bed, to hide her naked body from the fraternity men.
165. Soon after, Defendant SARABIA approached Plaintiff, grabbed her face and started kissing her, all without her consent, and Plaintiff pushed him away.
166. At that point, Plaintiff’s phone was on the other side of the room and she felt as if there was no way for her to escape this room full of predatory, fraternity men.
167. Defendant NEWELL then poured a line of Ketamine onto his erect penis and commanded that Plaintiff snort it, which she did.
168. Defendant NEWELL then got in the bed with Plaintiff and began groping her and reaching for her vagina, again.
169. While Plaintiff was lying on her back on the bed, Defendants INGALLS, NEWELL, LEE, LOPES, SARABIA, NORRIS, and KRETZSCHMAR, then began pouring lines of Ketamine all over her body and snorting them.
170. Eventually, Defendants NEWELL, LOPES, SARABIA, NORRIS, and KRETZSCHMAR, decided to exit this room and Plaintiff was removed by Defendant’s INGALLS and LEE to another, smaller room, believed to be the Fraternity President’s Office.
171. Once inside, Defendants INGALLS and LEE made more lines of Ketamine and instructed Plaintiff to snort one, which she did.
172. By this point, Plaintiff was completely incapacitated.
173. Thereafter, Defendant INGALLS and LEE initiated another assault of Plaintiff, forcing oral and vaginal sex upon her simultaneously.
174. At around 5:45 AM, this assault concluded and Plaintiff lost consciousness.
175. When Plaintiff awoke later that day, on October 20, 2024, Plaintiff returned to her residence within the ALPHA BETA CHAPTER sorority house.
This debate is un-resolvable because there enough information out there to support either position. I agree that the text message is what exposes the guys to criminal liability. I do not believe that there will be a conviction because the girl's story clearly changed, and not just between the day of and her decision to report the incident. The statement she signed off on describes a different situation than the lawsuit filed in her name.

To my knowledge,the statement the girl gave to Cornell is not available on the internet. However, the DA's summary of the statement is.

quote:

On the evening of October 19, 2024, Jane Doe walked the approximately one-mile distance from Lot 10 in the City of Ithaca to the Chi Phi Fraternity at 107 Edgemoor Lane to meet her friend Male Number 1. She had made plans to meet Male Number 1 earlier in the week and “had been texting [Male Number 1] that [she] was on the way.” Jane Doe described her level of intoxication as a “5 out of 10” when she arrived at the fraternity.

While there, Jane Doe opened one previously unopened can of beer. She and Male Number 1 “danced a little” in a way that “was definitely flirtatious in nature.” Male Number 1 brought Jane Doe to a “quiet area” and “asked how [Jane Doe] would feel about having a threesome with two male partners.”

Jane Doe “agreed due to how attracted [she] was to [Male Number 1] on top of [her] drunken curiousness.” When she learned that Male Number 2 would be the third participant, Jane Doe “remembered being excited because [she] thought that [Male Number 1 and Male Number 2] wanting to have a threesome meant that they were gay.”

The three engaged in a “threesome” involving oral and vaginal sex in a room of the fraternity. At the start of the threesome, Jane Doe described her intoxication level as “5 or 6 out of 10” and that she was “pretty ok with having this threesome.” The sexual conduct ended when Jane Doe “noticed that [Male Number 1] appeared really sleepy and was no longer fully erect.” She told Male Number 2 “[they] needed to stop having sex in order to make sure [Male Number 1] was ok. [Male Number 2] then stopped having sex with [Jane Doe].”

Male Number 1 said “he was going to take a nap and refresh himself” and “would eventually stumble his way from the couch to the bed.” While Male Number 1 slept,

“[Male Number 2] began to dry heave as if he was going to vomit. Jane Doe “began to take care of [Male Number 2] by patting his back while also waking [Male Number 1] every few minutes to make sure he was okay.” Jane Doe “was consoling [Male Number 2] on the couch and telling him that it was ok if he needed to vomit. [Male Number 2] told [Jane Doe] he was pretty sure he wasn’t going to vomit. Eventually, [Jane Doe and Male Number 2] would start making out for a very short amount of time.” While they were making out, “[Male Number 2] reached for the area near [her] vagina several times and each time he did, [she] would swat his hand away.”

Male Number 3 then knocked on the door of the room. Jane Doe “decided to let him in because it was his room.” She “opened the door” and let Male Number 3 in the room. Male Number 3 “introduced himself to [Jane Doe] and reached out to shake her hand.” “When [Jane Doe] made contact with [Male Number 3’s] hand, [Male Number 3] pulled [Jane Doe] into him and [they] began making out. While [Male Number 3] was kissing [her], [Male Number 2] began groping [her].” Eventually, “[Male Number 2, Male Number 3, and Jane Doe] would end up on the bed next to where [Male Number 1] was sleeping and [they] began to have a threesome.”

“[Male Number 1] would eventually wake up” and “said he wanted to take part and asked about making it a foursome, to which [Jane Doe] said ‘Hell No.” Jane Doe rejected this request “because [she] knew that a foursome meant that [she] would have to take part in anal sex.” Jane Doe then remembered Male Number 3 leaving the room.

A group of other men – later determined to be Male Number 4, Male Number 5, Male Number 6 and Male Number 7 – then entered the room. Jane Doe hid under the covers of the bed. Male Number 2 laid in the bed next to Jane Doe. Male Number 1 sat on the corner of the bed. Male Number 1 introduced the other males to Jane Doe.

Jane Doe had difficulty remembering parts of what happened next. She remembered

“[Male Number 7] said something very rude and mean to [her].” Male Number 7 apologized and “grabbed [her] face and started kissing [her].” Jane Doe “quickly backed away to stop [Male Number 7] from kissing [her].”

Male Number 2 “asked [Jane Doe] if she wanted to do more Ketamine.” At that, Jane Doe remembered “that [she] had taken Ketamine at some point on the couch with [Male Number 1 and Male Number 2] during this night” but she could not remember “where or when that took place.”

Jane Doe thought that she “had already done Ketamine once so why not do it a second time.” “At that point, [Male Number 2] poured a line of Ketamine on his erect penis, implying for [her] to snort the line. [Jane Doe] snorted the line of Ketamine, which was a heavy amount of Ketamine.” Jane Doe was under the covers of the bed at that point and “[Male Number 2] got under the covers with [her], where he again tried reaching for the area of [her] vagina.”

The males began complimenting Jane Doe and “talking about how pretty [she] was.” Male Number 4 “asked [Jane Doe] if they all could do drugs off of [her] perfect body.” Jane Doe responded, “Sure.” While the men were doing drugs off of her body, “[Male Number 3] and [another male] entered the room and said something like, ‘Ok we’re shutting down whatever the f*** this is.” Jane Doe felt dizzy due to a pre-existing medical condition causing dizziness combined with the effects of the Ketamine use. Male 5 or 6 (who apparently have the same first name) “encouraged [her] to stay seated as long as [she] needed.”

Eventually, “[Male Number 1] and [Male Number 4 ] ushered [Jane Doe] out of the room brought [her] upstairs to a small room.” Male Number 1 stated, “Let’s do more Ketamine.” Jane Doe “remembered snorting more Ketamine” and “remembered feeling extremely high.” Male Number 1 “said he wanted to have sex again because he wanted redemption for passing out earlier in the night.” Jane Doe initially stated that she was tired and asked Male Number 1, “What happened to just you and me?” Jane Doe could not remember how it started but she then engaged in a threesome with Male Number 1 and Male Number 4 involving oral sex and vaginal sex. She described her level of intoxication as “8 out of 10” at this point. “The threesome continued until at some point, around 5:45am, [Jane Doe] said [she] was tired and needed to turn in. At that point, both guys stopped the threesome with [her] as far as [she] can remember.”


If this is true, it is stupid. I can’t imagine expelling someone/being expelled for consensual sex. If you told me that some of the late comers who responded to the text were expelled, I’d believe it. They were in a better position to know better. Based on the information out there, I am shocked these guys didn’t sue for being expelled.

With the girl suing, these guys likely counter-suing, and these facts, Cornell is going to be the one taking it from both ends.
I started to exercise seriously when my hair started to go. You can be fat or bald, but not both. Sounds like you chose the opposite side of the coin.
Thank you. Yes. I think what makes rape challenging is that people tend to analyze the alleged victim’s state of mind rather than the alleged aggressor’s. No one ask the victim of any other type of crime whether they invited it. Legally, whether a robbery occurred doesn’t depend on whether the victim was walking through a bad neighborhood.

This is because alleged victim’s intent is not what makes a crime. The prosecution has to prove that the alleged aggressor committed the act and had the intent to commit it. The victim’s statement here is important, but I think more important are the statements and actions taken by males 3-7. That is where the Snap Chat comes in. Did they know she was drunk and high when they came in? Did 5 guys in a room leave her under the impression that she had to consent to sex with someone? None of us know these things.

So, I defer to my original post on page 2 of this thread. This is not a Duke lacrosse situation. The Snap Chat exposes these guys criminal liability. The fact that the university issued different punishments to different men, including expulsion, indicates that serious misconduct occurred.

Ok. Post the link to her statement or at least post the link to the summary of the statement by a source that has seen the document.
quote:

It isn't in the middle though because she admitted to complete consent to multiple threesomes with multiple different guys

When one guy wanted a foursome she said no and he said ok and didn't do it


Where is this information coming from? I admit that I have seen no original source document. I have not seen this reported by any news organization. I am not disagreeing with you, I just haven't seen it.
quote:

Bonnie Blue and every other porn star that has performed a gangbang


I think porn brain is a huge part of the disconnect. People learn about this story and brains go either to her being a completely willing participant or a completely unwilling participant. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I think that the Cornell investigation and punishments are instructive. Cornell put out a FAQ on its investigation and case handling. The university wrote

quote:

The university’s Title IX investigation occurred over several months. Pursuant to federal law, the matter was sent to a hearing where a panel of trained faculty and staff heard evidence over multiple days. The complainant and respondents had the opportunity to testify and present evidence. At its conclusion, the hearing panel issued a range of sanctions, which included expulsions and suspensions from Cornell.


To me, the "range of sanctions" including expulsion is instructive. I suspect that the students who were expelled might have gone beyond whatever it is she consented to.

The kid who was turned down for a make-out session though....probably stung in the moment. But that rejection saved him from taking a mouthful of his friends' jism and probably saved him from a rape charge too.
It is my understanding that the university handed out different levels of punishment to the accused men. That suggests to me that those who reviewed everything found different levels of culpability. Some of them were expelled from Cornell. I imagine that is the most serious punishment a university can dole out. I have not heard that the expulsions were challenged, appealed, or overturned. That, to me, suggests that a criminal prosecution will not go well for at least some of the accused.

Compare that to the LSU Title IX investigation involving the football player where the punishment was appealed and lowered.

Duke Lacrosse was a complete fabrication. This, unfortunately, is not.
I don’t think so. It is not disputed that there was sexual contact in this case. It is not disputed that the girl was intoxicated. There was an investigation by the university that resulted in punishment. The criminal question is whether she consented beyond the initial encounter. I think these guys are looking at jail time with the snap text.
If there is a snap chat about this, I imagine that there are also video recordings of what transpired. If that is the case, the kids being stupid phone addicts might just save their asses. It would explain why the Cornell Police did not escalate the investigation.
To be clear, your “gotcha” is the argument that these girls weren’t raped until after they were married?
By civilized standards any teenage girl married to an adult is, by definition, married to their rapist.
Nice. We are in row 4. See you there!
On this demand curve food is more valuable than lives. If there were actually a genocide occurring, the opposite would be true. Instead, they apparently have a surplus of women.
I got 4 in section 142 for the Tuesday show!
I'm going for Tuesday tickets because it works best with my vacation schedule.