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re: Why is france such a huge favorite?

Posted on 7/14/18 at 3:36 pm to
Posted by sgallo3
Dorne
Member since Sep 2008
24747 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 3:36 pm to
quote:

Peru is underrated


i do agree with that
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422470 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 3:58 pm to
the thing is the matchup just isn't good for Croatia

they've done well b/c of mod/rak being the best CM duo outside of Spain (who apparently only brought CMs)

the issue is they VERY LIKELY won't be able to boss France's midfield. not Kante/Pogba. also the physical superiority will be immense. France is one of the few teams who can neuter Croatia's big advantage. that's why they're huge favorites
Posted by castorinho
13623 posts
Member since Nov 2010
82031 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 4:11 pm to
It's hard to argue when you start a thread with a false premise. France is -120 to win in regulation, sure its closer to -180 to lift the cup. But that's hardly "huge favorites."
Posted by TutHillTiger
Mississippi Alabama
Member since Sep 2010
43700 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 4:11 pm to
I am taking Croatia ???? so France will probably win
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 4:30 pm to
The key for me is how much Croatia press the French back line. If it forces Lloris to go long, Giroud is a better hold up player than Kane, and Mbappe can do more with the second ball than Sterling can. There was sometimes 20 yards of space between Brozovic and Modric/Rakitic during pressing phases which left Croatia exposed to the second ball against England, situations that put Sterling in a good position.

Pressing as a unit upfield means that they can close the space down, but leave themselves vulnerable to balls into the space. Dropping off means they are less likely to win the ball upfield and catch France off guard in the transition phase. Not only that Croatia don't have a numerical advantage in midfield, and likely won't have immediate outballs available wide, as France's defensive shape is 4-3-3 ish and should mean that France and Croatia won't have free men in their defensive phases.

There are a lot of interesting tradeoffs to make for both teams. France's midfield quality is not that far off Croatia's, and Kante is as good at his job as Modric is at his. It's actually a really even matchup on paper. The key might be if Croatia decide to go to the low block, Umtiti is a good passer between the lines, and should be free to make passes. It might come down to the ball-playing ability of the French CB's, and the lack thereof by the Croatians.
Posted by sgallo3
Dorne
Member since Sep 2008
24747 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 4:55 pm to
the one thing that croatia has that noone in this world cup has really showcased is the ability and willingness for their midfielders to be able to not panic when they are pressured one on one. modric and rakitic are both comfortable on the ball to force you to send a second guy to take it from them. that was englands biggest issue. once you are having to send 2 guys to apply pressure you are pulling the entire team out of its shape

Pogba will be there no doubt. but Kante has been playing deeper and i doubt he'll wanna move up far enough to leave his CBs exposed. if he does it leaves a huge hole in that formation that mandzukic can move into to become a target man
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:05 pm to
Well everyone on both teams is mostly comfortable on the ball. Being pressured and panicking is something I would expect of England, but not of any player on France and Croatia, at least to the same degree. In France's offensive phase, if there is too much space behind Modric and Rakitic when they press, a wide player can move inside, bypassing the press, since they seem to insist on keeping Brozovic deeper. Griezemann, especially this tournament, isn't afraid to drop deep and dictate play if he can. The problem for Croatia is that France has the technical ability to deal with everything that Croatia like to do, and aren't physically deficient. It's going to come down to a couple of key phases. What if France decides to bypass the midfield and try to drop in on the chest of Giroud, who is really a superb target striker? What if Croatia presses high up the field which leaves space for Mbappe to run onto balls?

Croatia might have a slight advantage with regards to Perisic, who has been a wily sort of player this tournament. Perisic and Mandzukic can't be ignored, as Mandzukic presents similar problems to France's back line that Giroud presents to Croatia's, and is more dynamic and is a better scorer. Both Mandzukic and Giroud are excellent defensive forwards and will close down space, so to my eyes there isn't a real tactical advantage to be had on either side, and will come down to individual battles.

If I was France, I'd attempt to flood the middle if Croatia's midfield presses, and try to get Pavard upfied as an outlet to pin Croatia's weakest spot, LB, back. If I'm Croatia, I'd try to move it around the back quickly enough so that Giroud's closing down is avoided, and free passes are available to the midfield players, where one on one advantages can be pressed.
This post was edited on 7/14/18 at 5:06 pm
Posted by sgallo3
Dorne
Member since Sep 2008
24747 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:41 pm to
man talking about the game like this makes me wonder why tv analysts have to go with the "its coming home" storyline and the ronaldo and neymar shite instead of actually breaking down games like this during the pregame shows.

its making me even more hype to watch because we wont know how either team is gonna set up until they step on the field.

one thing i've noted about croatia early in games this tournament is that rakitic and modric sit back REALLY deep the first 15 minutes or so.

they were almost even with the CBs in the Nigeria game to start early. they definitely dont wanna give up an early goal against france.

Mandzukic has been quiet besides the ET goal vs England. either him or Giroud are due to show up big time
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
28432 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:47 pm to
I like your analysis but I don’t think Giroud is all that great at closing down defenders. He puts in the effort but his speed limits him.
Posted by sgallo3
Dorne
Member since Sep 2008
24747 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:49 pm to
yeah, Greizman will be the key when it comes to closing down on the midfielders to help out Pogba
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
28432 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:51 pm to
Yeah the analysis from ESPN last World Cup was way better than this year’s edition. Roberto Martinez was my favorite analyst. I think Holden does good analysis work too but they don’t let him leave the booth apparently.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:51 pm to
Croatia have started slowly, especially against England. But England played into their hands leaving Henderson on an island. They basically had a 2 v 1 in midfield for the last 75 minutes of the game. It won't be that easy against France, as the French also like to be compact. I can imagine a scenario where the French are comfortable enough to let Modric and Rakitic have some of the ball and try to draw them into areas where they can overload them, and then break. I can also imagine a situation where Mandzukic gets an inch of space and utilizes it. I have been super impressed by Varane in particular this tournament. He's been really good.

This game is hard to read for me. It could also be a game that goes 0-0 to ET and is won on penalties. France will probably be the aggressor, because their memories of what happened in Paris.

Selfishly, I'd like France to win the game so we can emulate the French youth system, as their use of regional schools would be the best solution to our problem with development as it relates to geography. But I wouldn't begrudge the best DLP of the tournament, Modric, again lifting the trophy, as has been the case since 2006. The difference between the French and Croatian midfield's is razor small though.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 5:57 pm to
quote:

I don’t think Giroud is all that great at closing down defenders


He runs a lot and gives a lot of effort, and the point is just to hurry a defender into making a safe pass rather than one that could pressure the defense. Let's say he focuses on Vida most of the game, which leaves Lovren open to make passes. That is a situation that the French wouldn't necessarily mind, because you are forcing the CB to make passes between the lines, and will cause the Croatian midfield to drop deeper, which gives more space to the French, etc. Winning the ball is secondary to dictating how you want the opposition to play. I think the weak link is the Croatian LB, but I'd imagine he'd already be pinned back because of the danger Mbappe presents. The French under Deschamps are so cautious, especially after what happened in the Euros, that I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fairly boring game.
Posted by Keys Open Doors
In hiding with Tupac & XXXTentacion
Member since Dec 2008
31907 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 6:05 pm to
Was Kroos a DLP in 2014?
Posted by TFTC
Chicago, Il
Member since May 2010
22281 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 6:07 pm to
quote:

I think the weak link is the Croatian LB


Lovren plays CB..
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
422470 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 6:09 pm to
i don't think Germany had just one

Kroos, Schweinie, and Khedira started in their midfield
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
28432 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 6:09 pm to
Most finals are pretty boring imo
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 6:10 pm to
Yeah I consider him to be. Khedira was there to run around both going forwards and backwards, and Kroos was there to recycle possession and play passes forward. Germany's set up, from what I recall, also put a lot of emphasis on the CB's making passes, especially Boateng. In general, I'd consider Kroos a DLP generally. Do people consider Kroos to be some other type of player? He's not really mobile, he doesn't really dribble to find space, and he's always ready to offer an outlet once he releases the ball.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
36311 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 6:11 pm to
quote:

Lovren plays CB..



Yeah I know. I wasn't suggesting he was the weak link, though I don't think he's a ball-playing defender. I was just using him as an example of how Giroud closing down the CB's could be used as a way of dictating the game to the Croatians. I just don't remember the name of the Croatian LB.
Posted by sgallo3
Dorne
Member since Sep 2008
24747 posts
Posted on 7/14/18 at 6:13 pm to
think strinic been starting. they basically been running 3 back tho with vida covering the left. he's played well tho
This post was edited on 7/14/18 at 6:13 pm
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