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re: Mourinho: Wenger a specialist in failure

Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:26 pm to
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:26 pm to
quote:

I don't think Wenger has anyone to blame but himself and the board for that, though.



Whoa, let's step back here. Wenger was hamstrung by the board in a serious, serious way.

The board wanted to build a new stadium. But they didn't want to leverage their equity. Someone can correct me here if I'm wrong but the board decided to saddle the club with long term debt, instead of using their equity and a much smaller loan to finance the stadium. Ultimately they wanted to protect the price of their shares by saddling the club with a long term (potential) liability, which almost immediately increased the price of their shares because of the increased revenue streams (as evidenced by the amount each got from Kronke and Usmanov) but protect them from that liability. This was in their own interest, and not the club's, as was the scale and reality of the self-financing model. While this was happening, they squeezed every last penny from the fans of the club, all the while cashing out, maybe millions of pounds in the process.

Their business plan in terms of the actual playing team was to keep Wenger at all costs, since getting CL football was absolutely required for the club to run without adding to the already massive stadium debt. It's actually an insane way of building a football club, and one that doesn't get criticized enough.

Wenger was a part of this to a degree, but he was always interested in the football club on the pitch. I'm not sure he understood why the board wanted to fund the stadium they way they did. When it became clear the the board was selling shares at massive profits, Wenger was stuck five years into a project he relished, choosing between Kroenke and Usmanov as the sugar daddy owner he never wanted.

People blame Wenger a lot, but I don't think people understand the level of deception that went on in the Arsenal boardroom with regards to the stadium. The idiotic front-loaded deals, the complete lack of vision, the self-financing model that involves pricing out all but the most white-collar of fans, all were part and parcel of the boardroom's decision to protect their equity rather than actually invest it in the club, or sell their shares at their Highbury value and get out if they weren't interested in actually staying at the club long term.

quote:

Maybe he has overachieved a couple of seasons, but no "top" manager who has had CL revenue for 16 straight seasons should win nothing over 8-year periods of time.


Maybe? Look at those squads from 2005 to 2009 and tell me you would bet on any these squads are top four worthy. After Cesc and Nasri left the squad was again bare, and it's only now rebuilt.

I'm not saying Wenger should be absolved of blame. He believed in a lot of projects who didn't pan out, and who played horribly along the way. He was the one who was hesitant in the market, where he lost out on one good player after another because he couldn't part with one or two million more. He was tactically stubborn with young team after young team, he insisted on his philosophy even if he didn't produce results. He did a lot wrong. But we went from a modest club that could reinvest whatever operating profits we had directly into the team, into a international club that can actually support large transfer fees and wages. Was that worth the 8 year trophy drought? Probably.

The fact that we are now self-sustaining (however misguided and risk-averse that project was) while still being a CL team is absolutely insane. The scale of the project is almost beyond comprehension now. Who knows where we would have been if we missed CL at any point.

So Wenger definitely hasn't been a failure, despite his inability to win a trophy. He's been massively successful in spite of major obstacles. The easiest thing to do would have been to leave when Real came calling in 06, save his reputation from the hit it's taken the past 8 years, and gone and built a winner there with unlimited funds. He didn't for better or worse, and the shame is that a manager who was once the equal of Sir Alex has fallen far behind in terms of reputation, when in his first 8 years in England he had 7 trophies, which overshadows the amazing coaching job he actually has done.

TL;DR-It's mostly the board's fault.
Posted by Dandy Lion
Member since Feb 2010
51416 posts
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:27 pm to
I can´t believe this thread is still going on. It just dawned on me. Do you think Mou is bummed RM wanted Wenger, before him?
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:37 pm to
quote:

the last three summers haven't been handled well by Wenger and for the past two seasons (last season and this current season) we've had a lot more money to spend and AW hasn't acted, to our detriment. that time is present this year for many fans, next year for pretty much every fan.



He's bought fairly poorly, if truth be told. His relative inaction in the summer of 2010 was no different, as we needed one more player attacking player that season to push on. Podolski is a moron, Gervinho was never good enough, Giroud is wasteful. and Andre Santos was awful, although Monreal, Cazorla, Arteta, Ozil, Mertesacker and Flamini were excellent buys.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:40 pm to
quote:

I can´t believe this thread is still going on. It just dawned on me. Do you think Mou is bummed RM wanted Wenger, before him?



Ha, I never thought about that. Mourinho is a massive narcissist, so it wouldn't surprise me. Wenger has been linked with Real a lot though.
Posted by Dandy Lion
Member since Feb 2010
51416 posts
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:56 pm to
quote:

Wenger has been linked with Real a lot though.
Bah, two times. The others were simply rumors. It was very serious, before Mourinho was hired (the intent I mean to say, as I don´t think Wenger went beyond being courteous and respectful).

Then again, he may have been afraid of failing.

Seriously, the pressure at RM is too much for most, and I could see Wenger not being up for it.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 11:59 pm
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
40042 posts
Posted on 2/15/14 at 12:01 am to
quote:

Seriously, the pressure at RM is too much for most, and I could see Wenger not being up for it.



Maybe, although I'd be interested to see the team he would build if he had unlimited funds. I really think he'd do well with a sugar daddy.
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
30134 posts
Posted on 2/15/14 at 12:28 am to
quote:

although Monreal, Cazorla, Arteta, Ozil, Mertesacker and Flamini were excellent buys.

No kidding. But it seems Ozil is limited by not having runners. So essentially he, for the purposes of the current season, has not really been an amazing value to say the least (ignoring potential future value, obviously). Flamini was the best value transfer in England this season
Posted by Dandy Lion
Member since Feb 2010
51416 posts
Posted on 2/15/14 at 12:30 am to
Sorry, I was running with the derail.

This post was edited on 2/15/14 at 12:34 am
Posted by dgnx6
Member since Feb 2006
91750 posts
Posted on 2/15/14 at 5:54 pm to
quote:

Don't you know Arsenal is the only team that deals with injuries. The excuse train is always running with Gooners.


What team do you root for and can you name an injury to a player worth millions every year of the last 8 years?

RVP
Sagna
Fabregas
Song
diaby
walcott
arteta
wilshere
ramsey
gibbs
rosicky
eduardo
vermaelen
cazorla
chamberlain
podolski



the list goes on and on where these guys missed multiple games that could have been the diff in winning some matches.


quote:

I’ve only researched 2009-2010 and 2010-2011, but numbers show that Arsenal have an equally-sized or smaller squad than both Man Utd and Liverpool (calculated from players used in the Premier League), but still suffer more injuries on average than all other teams in the Premier League


Arsenal haters can gfy
This post was edited on 2/15/14 at 5:56 pm
Posted by cwil177
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2011
30134 posts
Posted on 2/15/14 at 6:19 pm to
The people hating on Arsenal don't follow the team as closely as the fans do. Their ignorance is understandable. Their insistence on speaking from that podium, however, is not.
Posted by dgnx6
Member since Feb 2006
91750 posts
Posted on 2/15/14 at 6:41 pm to
And even though ive been frustrated, go back and look at the squads. I dont think any other coach could have done better. Wenger also makes players super stars, he never goes out and buys them. Ozil is the first.
Posted by Friend of OBUDan
Member since Dec 2008
9963 posts
Posted on 2/15/14 at 11:56 pm to
lots of teams deal with injuries every year, that's true. ours certainly seem worse (i can't remember any who've dealt with multiple super-long term injuries that were initially considered minor) but i don't have specific facts. would be interesting to see a study. the fact is, we don't have the depth due to funds that ManU, Chelsea and City have had.
Posted by dgnx6
Member since Feb 2006
91750 posts
Posted on 2/16/14 at 1:40 am to
Just Google it. Plenty of bloaks have done research. Ones obviously closer to the situation. I don't expect an LSU fan living somewhere outside of baton rouge to know more than I do about the team. I went to the damn school and have past players I'm buddies with. Not the case when I've never stepped foot in London.
Posted by svb
Missouri Fan
Member since Jun 2012
3127 posts
Posted on 2/16/14 at 12:44 pm to
del
This post was edited on 2/16/14 at 12:46 pm
Posted by RandySavage
9 Time Natty Winner
Member since May 2012
35826 posts
Posted on 2/16/14 at 7:28 pm to
quote:

I would say Mourinho was a mild failure at best at RM, winning only 2 trophies in 3 years with the largest budget on the planet.


It took him two years to knock off what some were saying was the greatest team of all time. He broke Real and La Liga records in the process. He also chased off the architect of Barcelona's run.

His third year everything went to shite behind the scenes and both sides were just riding out the season so they could mutually move on.

ETA: Just finished the rest of the thread, Dandy pure gold as usual my friend. Pure gold. You never cease to amaze.
This post was edited on 2/16/14 at 7:38 pm
Posted by TFTC
Chicago, Il
Member since May 2010
23689 posts
Posted on 2/16/14 at 7:36 pm to
Meh.. he inherited at team that amassed 96 pts in the league the year before.. It's not like they were far off..
Posted by RandySavage
9 Time Natty Winner
Member since May 2012
35826 posts
Posted on 2/16/14 at 8:32 pm to
Of course Real and Barca are always goign to have point totals like that in their two team league.

But finishing with a lot of points and winning the league are two very different things.
Posted by Friend of OBUDan
Member since Dec 2008
9963 posts
Posted on 2/16/14 at 8:43 pm to
quote:

Wenger said Mourinho's words were "silly and disrespectful"

"I never spoke about him in my press conference," added Wenger. "I know one thing, it is more embarrassing for Chelsea than it is for me."
Posted by Friend of OBUDan
Member since Dec 2008
9963 posts
Posted on 2/16/14 at 8:43 pm to
actually, they're pretty similar! in fact, one cannot be accomplished without the other!
Posted by PTBob
Member since Nov 2010
7105 posts
Posted on 2/17/14 at 10:33 am to
little anecdote from this past week.

i went and toured the emirates (fantastic stadium btw). on my way out a lady stopped me and my buddies and wanted to interview us. we obliged and she started asking questions

"did you know it has been over 8 years since arsenal won a trophy?"

"did you know over 1 billion people have been born in that same time period?"

etc etc.

basically she assumed i was an arsenal supporter and was trying to troll the shite out of me. i quickly told her i was a united supporter and that i was on her team.

she laughed and moved on to the next people.
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