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re: Why isn't the Trinity mentioned in the bible?
Posted on 11/28/22 at 9:24 pm to AggieHank86
Posted on 11/28/22 at 9:24 pm to AggieHank86
Sounds like you got it baw. Good luck.
0
Posted on 11/28/22 at 9:57 pm to GeauxBayouBengals
There is no analogy to the Trinity. It is entirely unique. All attempts to picture it via analogy will result in some form of heresy, like modalism.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 10:02 pm to GeauxBayouBengals
quote:
More Modalism. Come on now y’all, think about what you’re saying about God. The Trinity is not God taking on different roles, He is 3 distinct persons.
There is one God and I posted a lot of Bible references for you to look over. Don’t just rely on MY one little comment.
Read it. Absorb it. It’s not hard.
Here it is again:
The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten” (The Athanasian Creed, verse 22). According to the Bible, and to the ancient creeds of Christianity, the Son of God is eternal. There was never a time when He did not exist. God did not create Jesus.
John 1:1–3 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” This passage echoes the phrasing of Genesis 1:1, but it reveals more about the God who created everything. The Word in this verse refers to the Son of God before He took on human flesh and came to earth. Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” So the Son, later to be called Jesus, already existed in the form of God, a member of the triune Godhead. He was not created because God was not created.
Philippians 2:6–8 describes what took place when Jesus came to earth:
“Being in very nature God,
[he] did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!”
When the Son came to earth, He took on human nature and a human body. His body was “prepared” for Him, in order for the perfect sacrifice to be offered for sin (Hebrews 10:5). The Holy Spirit overshadowed a virgin, and she conceived (Luke 1:26–38). Jesus was then born into the world. As a part of humbling Himself, Jesus set aside His rights and privileges as God and took on the limitations and weaknesses of a baby. The pre-existent Christ was not created at the Incarnation, and His divine nature remained intact; the change, at that particular point in human history, was that the eternal Son of God took on human flesh. He had already existed as God, but He humbled Himself in order to become a man. From that point on, the uncreated Son is both truly God and truly man.
Jesus had to be fully human in order to bear the penalty for our sins (2 Corinthians 5:21). He lived the life we live, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15). He lived in complete harmony with His heavenly Father (John 8:29) and in complete dependence upon the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:14; John 14:10). No created being could have borne the weight of the world’s sins. All sacrificial animals used before Christ were merely symbols of the coming Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Only God Himself could meet the requirements for an acceptable substitute, and Jesus is God. Those who have faith in Him are guaranteed eternal life (John 3:16–18; 6:37; 10:28).
Take for example the words of Jesus in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33, emphasis added). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” This is a reference back to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” The Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
Is Jesus God? — His followers declared Him to be God.
John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God.
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as God, indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. Beyond these, there are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus being God.
Is Jesus God? — The reason Jesus must be God.
The most important reason that Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
Is Jesus God? Yes. Jesus declared Himself to be God. His followers believed Him to be God. The provision of salvation only works if Jesus is God. Jesus is God incarnate, the eternal Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13), and God our Savior (2 Peter 1:1).
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 10:06 pm
Posted on 11/28/22 at 10:02 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
There are also many Protestants and poorly Catechized Catholics who don’t even know they are Arians.
That's probably true.
People should take time to learn about these topics.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 10:12 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
John could have employed a scribe to write his Gospel while he dictated.
That's why he is often depicted dictating to St. Prochoros.
Posted on 11/28/22 at 10:20 pm to FlexDawg
I agree with all that...
But who are the dudes in psalm 82, and who's this Asherah and all these other supernatural clowns in the Bible?
But who are the dudes in psalm 82, and who's this Asherah and all these other supernatural clowns in the Bible?
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:50 pm to Liberator
quote:
Not making this personal but The Lord in scripture repeatedly makes it clear that those with a hardened heart and blinded eyes will not be able to understand The Word of God.
This is why it's been like another language or word-salad to you, impossible to comprehend -- despite your many attempts to read the Bible
The old "You gotta close your eyes and believe for the miracle to happen"
Posted on 11/28/22 at 11:52 pm to Flats
If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father
John 14:8-10
Disciples’ Literal New Testament
He Who Has Seen Me Has Seen The Father
8 Philip says to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us”. 9 Jesus says to him, “Am I with you[a] all for so long a time, and you[b] have not known[c] Me, Philip?— the one having seen Me has seen the Father. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? I am not speaking the words which I am saying to you[d] from Myself, but the Father abiding in Me is doing His works.
John 14:8-10
Disciples’ Literal New Testament
He Who Has Seen Me Has Seen The Father
8 Philip says to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us”. 9 Jesus says to him, “Am I with you[a] all for so long a time, and you[b] have not known[c] Me, Philip?— the one having seen Me has seen the Father. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? I am not speaking the words which I am saying to you[d] from Myself, but the Father abiding in Me is doing His works.
This post was edited on 11/28/22 at 11:54 pm
Posted on 11/29/22 at 12:10 am to Tigers2010a
Thanks for the link. It puts into words kinda what I think. His audience does look like a glazed over freshman class
When you make an assumption that cause exists and build your finite universe on the assumption, you do eventually have to go back and prove your assumption which I did not hear.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 12:16 am to ruffleforeskin
quote:Jesus’s identification of himself as the God of Israel are not limited to John’s gospel. In the synoptic gospels Jesus consistently uses the title Son of Man, a divine/human/messiah figure from the Old Testament, especially the book of Daniel.
Yes, there are implicit statements he made ("I am", etc) exclusively in the Gospel of John, and that Gospel is problematic in and of itself, given its historiographical reputation and relationship with the other Gospels.
Calming a storm at sea, walking on water, raising the dead, casting out demons, healing the blind or lame, and, perhaps most significant, forgiving individuals’ sins, these all take place in the synoptic gospels.
quote:
And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him, and when they had made an opening, they let down the bed on which the paralytic lay.
And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’, or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic— “I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.” And he rose and immediately picked up his bed and went out before them all, so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”
Mark 2:3-12
John’s gospel has been under relentless attack for over a century for no other reason than its record of Jesus’s explicit claims of divinity. It was written almost 200 AD, 150 AD-do I hear 120 AD? The harder skeptics worked the earlier and earlier John’s gospel proved to be. Now even the most stubborn grudgingly give it a date no later than 95-98 AD. It doesn’t make mention of the Romans destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, so why not an earlier date than the mid 90’s?
Not even Bart Ehrman disputes the early Church’s worship of Jesus and it’s recognition of his divinity can be traced back to within a couple of years of his crucifixion and resurrection.
It’s not a claim that should be lightly considered or blithely dismissed. Eternity hangs in the balance.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 2:43 am to ruffleforeskin
Three distinct persons, one in being. God is a relationship. And he wants a personal relationship with you good sir!!
Believe Jesus is the Son of God, repent from sin, and trust Jesus forgives you because of his perfect life and sacrifice on the cross for you!! He’s still alive and changing hearts still to this day!
God loves you man, so much. And hell is real.
Believe Jesus is the Son of God, repent from sin, and trust Jesus forgives you because of his perfect life and sacrifice on the cross for you!! He’s still alive and changing hearts still to this day!
God loves you man, so much. And hell is real.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 8:17 am to Trevaylin
quote:
When you make an assumption that cause exists and build your finite universe on the assumption, you do eventually have to go back and prove your assumption which I did not hear.
Yes, the infinite stack of turtles doesn't get to the core of the problem.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 9:05 am to Fat Bastard
quote:
plenty things are not in the bible but are accepted and true between all christian churches.
The rapture. Biggest crock of poo poo ever fantasized by the Protestants.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 9:25 am to ruffleforeskin
OP, your literal OP raises two separate but related questions. You have posed just one question.
You first bring up the topic of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which is a fine topic. Then you bring up the topic of what you might call "evolving Christology" - the evolution of "low" Christology to higher Christology in which Jesus is accepted as God in the Christian community.
The more important issue is this second issue about Christology. I think that the thread has done a fine job of demonstrating that Christology did not evolve. From the earliest days after His Resurrection, the Church preached Christ Jesus as Messiah and God.
Now, if we'd like to fully explore the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, and how that developed, that's nuanced and complicated. The first topic is easier.
You first bring up the topic of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which is a fine topic. Then you bring up the topic of what you might call "evolving Christology" - the evolution of "low" Christology to higher Christology in which Jesus is accepted as God in the Christian community.
The more important issue is this second issue about Christology. I think that the thread has done a fine job of demonstrating that Christology did not evolve. From the earliest days after His Resurrection, the Church preached Christ Jesus as Messiah and God.
Now, if we'd like to fully explore the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, and how that developed, that's nuanced and complicated. The first topic is easier.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 9:43 am to ruffleforeskin
Why is this discussion on a political board?
Posted on 11/29/22 at 9:45 am to FtHuntTiger
quote:
Why is this discussion on a political board?
Thanks for the bump.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 10:10 am to ruffleforeskin
There are many references and events of the "trinity" in the Bible. The baptism of Jesus is the most well known and witnessed by many people:
all 3 persons in the same event:
Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Mark 1:9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”[f]
Even in the first chapter of the Bible:
Genesis 1:26a Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, . . ."
all 3 persons in the same event:
Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Mark 1:9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”[f]
Even in the first chapter of the Bible:
Genesis 1:26a Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, . . ."
Posted on 11/29/22 at 10:58 am to ruffleforeskin
Nicene Creed and the first Council of Nicea. All you need to know about it.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 11:11 am to Trevaylin
quote:
When you make an assumption that cause exists and build your finite universe on the assumption, you do eventually have to go back and prove your assumption which I did not hear.
I'm not a big fan of the Kalam argument, but sufficient cause is an axiom without which the scientific process isn't possible or even needed.
Posted on 11/29/22 at 11:58 am to bizeagle
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are indeed mentioned in the Bible many times. However, the full doctrine of the Trinity took a long time to develop, and, as I've said previously in this thread, there are Protestant denominations today that do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity at all. These are denominations that profess to be "Bible Alone" Christians. They study the Bible, and only the Bible, and they profess that there is no Holy Trinity.
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