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re: Why don’t Muslims realize they need a reformation?
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:12 am to oogabooga68
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:12 am to oogabooga68
quote:Great Godwin, Batman!
Now replace Mohammed with the name “Adolph” and make the same excuses and arguments.
Hitler was decidedly-not similar to the leaders of his surrounding nation-states, and his behaviors were not remotely comparable to theirs. What a silly analogy.
2
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:12 am to AggieHank86
quote:ALL sources of Diprima quote available are lefty nut job cites. Moreover, you portrayed yourself as knowledgeable of Diprima meaning regardless of where you found his column, you:
I could tell you (truthfully) that I recall visiting the Daily Kos an entire two times in my life.
1. KNEW he was FAR left wing
2. Probably knew he wrote for the Kos given that EVERY linke I found quoting Diprima said, "as reported in the Kos".
quote:When you try the shite you pulled in that thread.........then pretend you didn't..........then lie your arse off.............THEN hide from points........THEN hide altogether..........your need for politeness dies.
You would question my veracity (usually in a polite manner)
quote:Oh. It is PROVEN that you, by YOUR OWN ADMISSION, were knowledgeable of Diprima.
I cannot “prove” my history, and neither can you
Quoting him (after pressed) quoting ANOTHER man SIX YEARS after man is dead AND TWO frickING YEARS after it would probably have been "recalled" outs you entirely. You can say you didn't get it from the Kos but honestly, that's like quoting an original Maddow article and saying, "but I didn't get it from her show!!!"
This post was edited on 5/6/19 at 9:14 am
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:13 am to AggieHank86
quote:I didn't say it was. Don't try to lawyer me a-hole.I know you can read.
No really the genesis of The Reformation.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:15 am to ShortyRob
Shorty, you are obsessing. I do not usually associate you with lackwits like STD, but this behavior is nudging the border.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:15 am to AggieHank86
quote:
What a silly analogy.
Not really, I just assumed rationalizing the behavior of murderous tyrants was a hobby of yours.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:16 am to AggieHank86
Bold talk from a Sociopath.....
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:16 am to AggieHank86
quote:Standard response on pretty much all political boards when someone doesn't like that their pants are around their ankles.
Shorty, you are obsessing. I do not usually associate you with lackwits like STD, but this behavior is nudging the border.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:17 am to oogabooga68
Well, this thread has devolved into (1) my attempts to discuss the OP’s topic, with responses consisting primarily of (2) Ooga’s hurling of epithets
Later.
Later.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:19 am to AggieHank86
quote:and this is a case of someone knowing just enough to be dangerous. you're acting like there is this one isolated verse that is sometimes interpreted controversially. in reality, there are dozens of verses that have led to certain schools/sects developing violent praxis against others and christians/jews in particular.
relevant scholarship related to the Sword Verse
moreover, you have not even mentioned or considered the importance of the hadith.
it seems you are unaware of the ongoing debates between those of khawarij persuasion and those who continue murjiah/mutazilah thinking. the contention is around who is/isn't included in the umma and how to respond to those guilty of shirk. iow, is violence against them justified? certain people like to highlight that there are so many "peaceful" muslims but those scholars have never been able to theologically trump those who advocate for jihad against infidels.
if you're really interested in the reason why, it's because the quran is theologically convoluted enough to allow for both positions to be justified. the hadith merely reflects certain scholars perspectives on these matters.
quote:this is another silly idea about muslims. the vast majority of muslims do not read quranic arabic. so the question you should ask is how it is read. the imams read and translate the quran for people so, people really know what the imams tell them, not their own reading. ftr, you can also look into the debate(s) about translating the quran into other languages.
less well-read Muslims
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:20 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Well, this thread has devolved into (1) my attempts to discuss the OP’s topic, with responses consisting primarily of (2) Ooga’s hurling of epithets
Later.
Buh Bye fraud
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:22 am to AggieHank86
quote:and this is a gross mischaracterization of what is actually happening.
scholars who actually understand the text acknowledge that those persons are misinterpreting it to justify their actions.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:25 am to AggieHank86
quote:and the khawarij are every bit as theologically justified in their violent interpretations as any opposing schools. that's why i object to calling them "extremists." they are not extremists. they are valid conservatives according to islamic scriptures; quran, hadith, etc. those who are peaceful and modern are islamic liberals.
It makes the difference as to whether a given behavior should be attributed to a religion itself of instead to purported adherents to that religion who act in a manner inconsistent with the teachings that they CLAIM to follow
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:27 am to ShortyRob
He gonna cook some grits........outside.....
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:33 am to oogabooga68
quote:
He gonna cook some grits........outside.....
He's still online.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:41 am to AggieHank86
quote:this is getting off topic. the fact is that there is quranic islam and ground level islam. most muslims, especially in islamic majority countries allow for praxis that is outside of the quran, such as the hand of fatima (evil eye). it is superstition that is contrary to quranic belief. his point was if the populace do things like this, then scholarly interpretation is being trumped by ground level praxis. but in the case of jihad, it's not really relevant because most muslims follow a school on this matter. thus, your response to him is not really relevant either because chrisitians CAN read the scriptures for themselves and arrive at their own interpretation. they are only accountable to God although their actions do have consequences to others in this life.
The alternative would be to vilify ALL Christians for the misguided interpretations and actions of that 40%.
it's also true that since islam is a works based religion, they are eligible for criticism of their actions. this is unfortunately misunderstood about christians meaning many people try to criticize christian doctrines based on the actions of christians, which is not always applicable
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:46 am to oogabooga68
quote:this is a nuanced issue. muslims are not supposed to worship muhammed. they are supposed to worship the quran as the divine incarnation of allah. muhammed was only a prophet (messenger). thus, it is justifiable for a muslim to say that the flaws of muhammed are not a valid criticism against the quran. however, muhammed allegedly transcribed allah's dictation. if muhammed was of questionable character, is he really a trustworthy source. iow, how much does the quran reflect his own foibles?
It speaks to what kind of person mo was.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:48 am to AggieHank86
quote:this is a standard, modern, western, liberal misconception of islam. again, this is why jihadis get incorrectly labeled as extremists and fanatics. they are neither. they are legitimate conservatives.
that problem is an uneducated mass of adherents who behave in a manner inconsistent with the teachings of its founding text
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:53 am to AggieHank86
quote:i get the impression you haven't studied islam at all or have read the quran.
He was simply a fairly-typical political leader in his time and place in history. Not much better or worse than dozens of his contemporaries. Simply more successful.
muhammed started having "visions" and that led to him attracting attention. his religious movement started to flag and he was losing followers because the authorities were tired of his crap. he then turned to raiding caravans to keep his movement funded. turns out he was a pretty successful military leader so you got that part right.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 9:57 am to AggieHank86
quote:more like skirmishes that were a result of his religious aspirations. in short, he was upsetting the local status quo and economy.
he and his followers were engaged in a war with neighboring groups.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:01 am to AggieHank86
quote:what the heck? hitler acted very much like many who came immediately before him and his contemporaries. his military aspirations were a product of colonial/imperialist thinking. how in the world can you act like you don't know this. besides, muhammed was not like his contemporaries as you say.
Hitler was decidedly-not similar to the leaders of his surrounding nation-states, and his behaviors were not remotely comparable to theirs
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