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Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:03 am to SUB
quote:
This is what I don't get...He makes cakes ahead of time that can be bought for any type of couple, gay or straight. But he refuses to create one when requested by a gay couple. Why does he care so much about his "speech" when being requested to make a cake by a gay couple but doesn't care about it when he's making a cake that could be potentially bought by a gay couple? On one hand, he's willfully making cakes to be bought by anyone, and on the other, is unwilling to make one for gay couples.
It's been a while since I have witnesses such unabashed stupidity as /\ THIS /\
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:07 am to rooster108bm
quote:
eres my thing cwill if I ask you to prove to me where a woman has a right to vote, you will show me an amendment, if I ask you where a black person can vote you will show me an amendment. If I ask you where gays get their rights you will point to scotus. You beginning to see the problem? I'm not saying anyone doesn't deserve anything, just some people went the cheap unconstitutional way of getting what they wanted.
How about I show you a Colorado state law that prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation? The constitutional question being posed isn't about whether or not all bakers in every state have to bake gay cakes - it's whether or not the Colorado law is constitutional.
Here's the thing rooster, I don't think you know what's going on here.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:10 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
It's been a while since I have witnesses such unabashed stupidity as /\ THIS /\
Hang around. He'll one up himself in a minute
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:12 am to SUB
I doubt he has premade cakes with two grooms on it.
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 11:17 am
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:18 am to SUB
quote:
Chill out people. I never said he should or shouldn't do something. Just questioning his logic.
OK - here's the thing.
He creates designs for custom cakes. He will SELL them anything he has, but he will not DESIGN something that he doesn't believe in.
It is the same thing as trying to hire Barbra Streisand to sing DIXIE at a Southern Baptist Convention.
Also - there is more than just pushing a cake across the counter and the couple walks out with it. Most high end bakeries (and those wishing to become high end in the wedding arena) are expected to service the wedding reception where the cake will be displayed. There is cooperation between the baker, the caterer, and the florist to design the presentation. The baker delivers the cake and sets up the cake table at the reception. For intricate designs the baker provides the service to slice and serve the cake.
He is not just selling stuff out of the oven when he does a wedding cake. He has those for sale, but they are just a product which anyone can walk in and purchase. If they had wanted a stock cake, and walked out with it - no problem.
If they wanted a custom design with unicorns and homosexual themes, then no-go. There are other bakeries who will be glad to provide a service for you.
this couple was not shopping for a cake - they were shopping for a grievance. I would bet they went to several bakeries who would do what they wanted, but passed them up - they wanted someone to refuse them the service.
Piss on 'em.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:27 am to cwill
State law is fine I have no problem with state law. Do you? I am a firm believer in the 10th amendment. Are you? Or do you wish to push Colorado law onto Alabama?
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 11:28 am
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:28 am to rooster108bm
"Can you show me any amendment where the the Federal government assumed rights over the states regarding homosexuals like they did with Black's?"
No, but again, that's not the point. The question in the pending case is whether a STATE statute prohibiting discrimination against gays is in conflict with the First Amendment rights of the baker. If the acts involved in providing a custom wedding cake qualify as protected expression under the First Amendment, then the state presumably can require the baker to serve the gay couple. If the acts associated with providing a cake do not equal protected expression, then the state statute would likely have to yield to the baker's First Amendment rights.
Note that to keep it simple, I am only addressing speech rights; I assume the baker also an argument that this right to the free exercise of his religion is being curtailed.
No, but again, that's not the point. The question in the pending case is whether a STATE statute prohibiting discrimination against gays is in conflict with the First Amendment rights of the baker. If the acts involved in providing a custom wedding cake qualify as protected expression under the First Amendment, then the state presumably can require the baker to serve the gay couple. If the acts associated with providing a cake do not equal protected expression, then the state statute would likely have to yield to the baker's First Amendment rights.
Note that to keep it simple, I am only addressing speech rights; I assume the baker also an argument that this right to the free exercise of his religion is being curtailed.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:29 am to Revelator
quote:
It could be said that the gay couple was trying to force their morality on him.
can you point to the ancient sheep herder story of a sky daddy that laid down the law against heterosexuality that is dogma to a billion people
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:29 am to Erin Go Bragh
quote:
Would you be more receptive to his religious conscience if he were Muslim?
nope all religion is equally dumb
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:30 am to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
Note that to keep it simple, I am only addressing speech rights; I assume the baker also an argument that this right to the free exercise of his religion is being curtailed.
Wholeheartedly understand. I'm also trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:30 am to SUB
quote:If he is selling cakes that depict two men or two women marrying, you have a solid point. Is that what he is doing?
his is what I don't get...He makes cakes ahead of time that can be bought for any type of couple, gay or straight
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:31 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
The only thing at isssue here is private property rights.
What about states rights?
He was operating his business in Colorado. Colorado had a law on the books making sexual orientation a protected class when it came to public accommodation.
It seems like no one ever references this when talking about this case.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:34 am to SUB
quote:
This is what I don't get...He makes cakes ahead of time that can be bought for any type of couple, gay or straight. But he refuses to create one when requested by a gay couple. Why does he care so much about his "speech" when being requested to make a cake by a gay couple but doesn't care about it when he's making a cake that could be potentially bought by a gay couple? On one hand, he's willfully making cakes to be bought by anyone, and on the other, is unwilling to make one for gay couples.
#1. Because he's not a total a-hole. Anyone can come in and shop. He isn't using his store to parade morality and tell gay people to gtfo. He's just a nice guy following his religious convictions.
#2. He WILL make the gay folks a cake, but he WON'T make them a gay-themed cake, because he probably feels like it endorses or encourages something he feels is religiously wrong.
He has every right in the world to refuse service for any reason. Just like anyone else has the right to boycott him.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:34 am to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
. If the acts involved in providing a custom wedding cake qualify as protected expression under the First Amendmen
Please explain how you can make someone else express your first amendment rights.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:34 am to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
What about states rights?
Individual rights>>>>>>>state’s rights>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fed government rights
quote:I reject the notion that such a thing should even exist.
Colorado had a law on the books making sexual orientation a protected class when it came to public accommodation.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:34 am to rooster108bm
quote:
State law is fine I have no problem with state law. Do you? I am a firm believer in the 10th amendment. Are you? Or do you wish to push Colorado law onto Alabama?
So you're OK with the baker being required to make gay cakes pursuant to state anti-discrimination laws?
Because that's all this case is about.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:35 am to Jay Quest
quote:
I don't think they have an issue with selling to gays. They simply don't wish to make a cake celebrating a gay wedding.
That's how I understand the issue. Perhaps there is more.
What if he doesn't wish to bake a cake celebrating a black wedding? Or a Jewish wedding? You can't openly discriminate against a group of people in this country. No one is forcing him to bake a cake for anyone. No one is forcing him to bake custom wedding cakes. However if he chooses to go into that business then he can't discriminate based on gender, race, sexuality, etc...or you at least have to hide that you are doing it a little better.
This isn't that difficult to figure out and understand.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:36 am to SUB
quote:
This is what I don't get..
It's simple really, those cakes are made with no knowledge of who will be buying them. A custom cake is made with specific, intimate knowledge of where it will be used and for what purpose.
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 11:37 am
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:40 am to cwill
quote:
So you're OK with the baker being required to make gay cakes pursuant to state anti-discrimination laws?
As long as Alabama is also allowed to ban gay marriage I fine with it.
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