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GumboPot
USA Fan
Member since Mar 2009
70032 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

Because foreigners are ultimately paying for it?


That's a great argument for China to drop their tariffs. I know we will respond in kind.
This post was edited on 6/11 at 10:04 am


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pizzatiger
Member since Apr 2019
274 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

Interesting statement. Detail that out for us.



Sure. Small firms do not have the reserves to sustain tariffs. That's why the government is having to write checks to farmers. However, other small businesses are not so lucky because there isn't a mechanism to subsidize them.

The Koch brothers will never go bankrupt. Walmart will be fine. They can work around this stuff much more easily.


NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
93574 posts
 Online 

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

Sure. Small firms do not have the reserves to sustain tariffs.

What "reserves" are you talking about? Operating margin? Cash on hand as a % of operating expense?
quote:

That's why the government is having to write checks to farmers.
No.
The government is writing checks to farmers regardless of whether they are ADM, or Andy D Mayberry's 20 acre soybean plot because the CCP specifically targeted them in an effort to politically leverage the US push against trade asymmetry.


pizzatiger
Member since Apr 2019
274 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

What "reserves" are you talking about? Operating margin? Cash on hand as a % of operating expense?



I work in corporate finance so I try to put things in journalist terms. However, most larger firms are accessing the effects of tariffs on margins and delaying any immediate action. There are teams of people looking at this stuff. This is both in terms of markets here and abroad. You are buying from and selling to places all over.

In short, large firms are less sensitive to short term changes in margins AND more adept at understanding how to react in the longer run.

Small firms often have no such luxuries. No sophisticated teams of analysts. And a much greater sensitivity to fluctuations in transaction costs. If China is a big buyer of a small firm, they are fricked. If China makes one part that you have to have and no one else can, you are fricked (the government actually has a tariff waiver program for this).
This post was edited on 6/11 at 10:59 am


BigJim
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
10570 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

Yeah, the biggest thing with China has always been IP theft and currency manipulation.


Right, so to the answer the OP's question I guess because they weren't a big deal.


Personally I am fine with using tariffs to force more open markets. If it works, that's great.

However there are plenty of his supporters who just want closed markets in some vain attempt to protect American jobs.

Tariffs as a short-term tactic I get.
Tariffs as a long-term solution to "protect" jobs is dumb.



mauser
LSU Fan
Bunkie
Member since Nov 2008
9012 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
I don't think they hate America and I don't think they love it. They don't care. All they care about is cash in their pocket and if that means let Chop Suey make it for 2 bucks and hour and import for nothing rather than paying Bubba 15 an hour plus benefits then they're going with Chop Suey. That's what the Bush/Clinton trade deals were all about.


QboveTopSecret
Army Fan
America
Member since Feb 2018
1067 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?

quote:

we can mitigate that 3.5% risk toward other trading partners.


Hanoi, Vietnam – Today the U.S. Trade and Development Agency finalized a grant agreement with Vietnam Electricity (EVN) to produce a feasibility study to assess the site selection and optimal design for a $1 billion liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminal and gas-to-power project in southern Vietnam. USTDA’s feasibility study will set the initial parameters for the growth of LNG in the nation and bring much-needed affordable and accessible power to Vietnam’s southern region, while also opening new opportunities for U.S. firms to supply gas infrastructure solutions.

This project supports the Trump Administration’s Indo-Pacific vision and its AsiaEDGE initiative – Enhancing Development and Growth through Energy – in which USTDA and its interagency partners are promoting sustainable and secure energy markets throughout the Indo-Pacific region. The grant also supports USTDA’s Gas Infrastructure Exports Initiative, which is advancing gas infrastructure in partner countries by connecting project sponsors to cutting-edge U.S. technologies, equipment and long-term development.

The grant agreement was signed at EVN’s headquarters in Hanoi by Duong Quang Thanh, the Chairman for EVN, and U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam, Daniel Kritenbrink. EVN CEO, Tran Dinh Nhan, and USTDA Acting Deputy Director Todd Abrajano also participated in the ceremony, describing the scope and potential of this historic development.

LINK


pizzatiger
Member since Apr 2019
274 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

I don't think they hate America and I don't think they love it. They don't care. All they care about is cash in their pocket and if that means let Chop Suey make it for 2 bucks and hour and import for nothing rather than paying Bubba 15 an hour plus benefits then they're going with Chop Suey. That's what the Bush/Clinton trade deals were all about.



See, this is what people are talking about. Chop Suey can work for less than Joe Blow in America even if tariffs are 0% and other non-tariff barriers are adjusted too. Standards of living are different. It will never be completely even.

Do you truly want China to remove trade barriers or do you want protectionism for the US worker?

I feel like Trump is appealing to 2 different groups of people by using tariffs
This post was edited on 6/11 at 10:57 am


NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
93574 posts
 Online 

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

I work in corporate finance so I try to put things in journalist terms
I'm not a journalist.
I have owned and run businesses.

SWOT analyses were something that comprised a significant amount of energy at annual meetings. Anticipating/understanding risks and mitigation were something we spent considerable time addressing at board meetings.

Hence the questions.

Left unfettered, large corporations are better set to lever cheap foreign manufacturing, and use that leverage as an entry-growth barrier vs smaller companies. They are also better set to fully appreciate any anti-American costs of doing so. Pardon me for not shedding tears for any of them in this situation.
quote:

Small firms often have no such luxuries. No sophisticated teams of analysts. And a much greater sensitivity to fluctuations in transaction costs.
Again, business success is contingent on risk mitigation. The same is true of investment. Diversification is a key component in risk mitigation.
quote:

If China is a big buyer of a small firm, they are fricked.
Interesting hypothetical. Any actual examples of a small firm exporting in bulk to China.


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Tchefuncte Tiger
Bat'n Rudge
Member since Oct 2004
37592 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

Would that be a PITA for facebook? Sure! But regulation would be a nearly insurmountable barrier to new entry.


Because people like Zuckerberg would write the rules.


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bfniii
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2005
13003 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

pizzatiger
whose alter is this?

quote:

now it's been a year and a half
and? is that supposed to be a long time?

quote:

we're sending billions and billions to farmers
for now. do you know anyone, particularly trump, who is advocating that this is permanent?

i don't get it. trump is trying to stop something that has been causing significant pain. he's also trying to help farmers in the short term so they don't feel the pain. explain to me how this is not EXACTLY how the govt should operate.


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bfniii
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2005
13003 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

You realize that US firms actually sell shite to the Chinese, right, and they've been hit with reciprocal tariffs? That country with 15% of the world's population. Turns out it's kind of a big market.
sigh. ok genius. how would you fix the ip theft problem and trade imbalance?


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bfniii
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2005
13003 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

Small firms often have no such luxuries
and this is the same old story because orangemanbad people never mention that these particular companies were ALREADY feeling pain due to the existing situation. they act like these tariffs created pain out of nothing and trump was stupid for doing it.


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bfniii
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2005
13003 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

However there are plenty of his supporters who just want closed markets in some vain attempt to protect American jobs
what trump has said all along is that he wants to work with these countries for mutual benefit. of course then tds people start saying "see! he's a foreign agent!" it's stupid because trump can't win either way.


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bfniii
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2005
13003 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

This project supports the Trump Administration’s Indo-Pacific vision and its AsiaEDGE initiative – Enhancing Development and Growth through Energy – in which USTDA and its interagency partners are promoting sustainable and secure energy markets throughout the Indo-Pacific region. The grant also supports USTDA’s Gas Infrastructure Exports Initiative, which is advancing gas infrastructure in partner countries by connecting project sponsors to cutting-edge U.S. technologies, equipment and long-term development.

The grant agreement was signed at EVN’s headquarters in Hanoi by Duong Quang Thanh, the Chairman for EVN, and U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam, Daniel Kritenbrink. EVN CEO, Tran Dinh Nhan, and USTDA Acting Deputy Director Todd Abrajano also participated in the ceremony, describing the scope and potential of this historic development.
"NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TPP FOREVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - NPC90


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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
93574 posts
 Online 

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

Why do you think so many small businesses are opposed to the tariffs?
I missed this earlier.
If you return to the thread, could you quantify "so many"?

I don't personally know a single small business owner who is opposed to reining asymmetrical Chinese trading habits in.


germandawg
Member since Sep 2012
14135 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
Because the vast majority of those among us suffering from the delusion of the infallibility of the free market think the term means what it has been defined as by the GOP or the "conservative" movement in the United States over the last 70 some odd years.

There is no free market when one nation provides safe passage and secure markets for all other nations on earth. US workers and US businesses have suffered crippling self imposed tariffs since at least the end of the second world war but the investor class has hoodwinked some among us into worshipping at the alter of their version of the free market so they would have the opportunity to invest in shite holes (our presidents term) and exploit the people and natural resources in those shite holes with less risk than would otherwise exist if we hadn't been spending as much on "national security" as the next 20 or so nations combined for the last 70 some years.

Tariffs and protectionism of American jobs was a basic plank in the democratic party platform until Ronald Reagan lead some of all into thinking "conservativism", as defined by that same investor class, was the only way the United States could move forward in 1980. Bill Clinton squared that circle by leading the democratic party on a 27 year and running course of trying to out "conservative" the GOP by singing the praises of internationalism and free trade and trade deals. Meanwhile our defense system allows China to clean our clock...something a communist economy could not do without our assistance (defense spending allowing Chinese goods safe passage around the, world secure markets for those goods and near risk free investment for western capital), we have a socialist nation whose succor is paid for by US taxpayers, South Korea (Samsung couldn't exist without US Taxpayers holding China at bay) and those same US Taxpayers have been told, and many have bought in hook, line and sinker, that what we need is even more of this type of free trade.

Good, bad or indifferent Donald Trump has laid the lie to Reaganesque conservativism and thank god for that. We have seen what blue collar workers fed up with free trade and PC bull shite can do...and that lesson has not fallen on deaf ears within either party....


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93and99
Florida State Fan
Dayton , Oh
Member since Dec 2018
1914 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

Like Justin Amash's Chinese tool business that set's up manufacturing in China they want to enjoy the protectionism of Chinese tariffs but want the free open access to U.S. markets so they can drain American wealth.


The RETALIATORY tariff haters like the idea of American workers taking it up the arse from foreign countries.

My signature says it all.


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pizzatiger
Member since Apr 2019
274 posts

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

I don't personally know a single small business owner who is opposed to reining asymmetrical Chinese trading habits in.



I don't either. Most just disagree with using tariffs. Not mutually exclusive.


NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
93574 posts
 Online 

re: Why are "free traders" quiet about foreign tariffs but apoplectic about U.S. tariffs?
quote:

I don't personally know a single small business owner who is opposed to reining asymmetrical Chinese trading habits in.


I don't either. Most just disagree with using tariffs.
I see I wasn't successful in getting you to quantify "so many" or "most".
So let's go at it differently.

Most small businesses do not disagree with using tariffs.
See how easy that is.

So again do you have a citation?


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