re: Who determines “jurisdiction” in the 14th amendment? The president?

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The Supreme Court Justice who wrote the dissent

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Key word: dissent

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I guess he's not "logical."

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No. Why make stupid gotcha attempts? My comment you quoted was about contemporary analysis of the ruling of the case. You reference a dissent of the case, which has no applicability or place within the comment about contemporary analysis (or obvious reasons that I hope I don't have to explain to you).

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It then explicitly excludes Indians because they do not have allegiance to the US.

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The court analyzes Elks v. Wilkins, and you're leaving out an important point: the persons involved in that case was born on Indian land.

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The judge explicitly excludes Indians because they are subjects of their tribe. He then admits that Wong's parents were subjects of the Emperor, but somehow that doesn't matter now.

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Where was Wong born?

Where were the Indians in Elk born?

There is no consistency issue. There is a "you reporting the facts dishonestly" issue. It makes all the sense in the world when you report the facts correctly.

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To say that this ruling gives every illegal alien born here citizenship is a huge leap in logic.

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Only if you ignore the explicit textual and historical analysis of "subject to the jurisdiction".

If you read the thread, you would see I already covered this in this thread earlier. Feel free to catch up now.

USSC can likely reverse it stating it is unconstitutional on its face.

and Vivek was emphasizing that there are MANY illegal laws they will present to the USSC as we have a favorable court that we have not seen in a very long time.

When foreign diplomats have kids here, those kids aren’t citizens. How can be that the spawn of illegals are legal?

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A) IAW 1898 law, it shouldn't have mattered

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It clearly does/did

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B) It wasn't addressed

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That was the whole point of Elk

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C) They were not born in the same place.

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Where they were born matters

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That decision was placed upon the grounds that the meaning of those words was 'not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance'; that by the constitution, as originally established, 'Indians not taxed' were excluded from the persons according to whose numbers representatives in congress and direct taxes were apportioned among the several states, and congress was empowered to regulate commerce, not only 'with foreign nations,' and among the several states, but 'with the Indian tribes'; that the Indian tribes, being within the territorial limits of the United States, were not, strictly speaking, foreign states, but were alien nations, distinct political communities, the members of which owed immediate allegiance to their several tribes, and were not part of the people of the United States

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and, therefore, that 'Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States, members of, and owing immediate allegiance to, one of the Indian tribes (an alien, though dependent, power), although in a geographical sense born in the United States, are no more 'born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' within the meaning of the first section of the fourteenth amendment, than the children of subjects of any foreign government born within the domain of that government, or the children born within the United States of ambassadors or otehr public ministers of foreign nations.

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D) Those born under US jurisdiction

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Wong clearly says the ruling only applied to those born under a jurisdiction other than the US (not US soil). That's the crucial difference.

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When foreign diplomats have kids here, those kids aren’t citizens. How can be that the spawn of illegals are legal?

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Illegals aren't diplomats and are subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

Diplomats are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US. If they commit crimes here, we cannot prosecute them.

Y'all need to do your research and consumer scholarly work like Lethal Weapon 2.

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and subject to the jurisdiction thereof

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Foreign diplomats' children born here are not given citizenship. Illegal aliens should be treated likewise.

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Foreign diplomats' children born here are not given citizenship. Illegal aliens should be treated likewise.

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But we don't treat them likewise otherwise.

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Where they were born matters

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Is that what the ruling really said?
I'm not sure it does.

If so, was there a differential demarcation of birthright set forth for Native Americans born away from the reservation?
Could you cite that? Because I've missed it.

Aside from that, let's address the court's differentiation regarding birthright exclusions for Native Americans born on reservations. Was there a SCOTUS presumption that any Native American who committed a major offense in 1898 was not fully subject to US jurisdiction, thereby "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"? If so, the court was uninformed. If not, its ruling was flawed.

The court attempted to split hairs by introducing the term ""political jurisdiction"". The 14th Amendment says nothing about ""political jurisdiction"" whatever that might be. But the court's bent in going there implies a submission to said jurisdiction. i.e., Indians were fully subject to US jurisdiction for major offenses, but they politically avoided/circumvented/mitigated such jurisdiction as a people when they could. That seems the point of the jurisdictional distinction as addressed.

But that interpretation would speak negatively to one who is now here illegally. The mere fact of their illegal presence implies unwillingness to cooperate with, submit to, or acknowledge jurisdiction.

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The fundamental principle of the common law with regard to English nationality was birth within the allegiance—also called 'ligealty,' 'obedience,' 'faith,' or 'power'—of the king. The principle embraced all persons born within the king's allegiance, and subject to his protection. Such allegiance and protection were mutual,—as expressed in the maxim, 'Protectio trahit subjectionem, et subjectio protectionem,'—and were not restricted to natural-born subjects and naturalized subjects, or to those who had taken an oath of allegiance; but were predicable of aliens in amity, so long as they were within the kingdom. Children, born in England, of such aliens, were therefore natural-born subjects. But the children, born within the realm, of foreign ambassadors, or the children of alien enemies, born during and within their hostile occupation of part of the king's dominions, were not natural-born subjects, because not born within the allegiance, the obedience, or the power, or, as would be said at this day, within the jurisdiction, of the king.

This fundamental principle, with these qualifications or or explanations of it, was clearly. though quaintly, stated in the leading case known as 'Calvin's Case,' or the 'Case of the Postnati,' decided in 1608, after a hearing in the exchequer chamber before the lord chancellor and all the judges of England, and reported by Lord Coke and by Lord Ellesmere. Calvin's Case, 7 Coke, 1, 4b-6a, 18a, 18b; Ellesmere, Postnati, 62-64; s. c. 2 How. St. Tr. 559, 607, 613-617, 639, 640, 659, 679.

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In Udny v. Udny (1869) L. R. 1 H. L. Sc. 441, the point decided was one of inheritance, depending upon the question whether the domicile of the father was in England or in Scotland, he being in either alternative a British subject. Lord Chancellor Hatherley said: 'The question of naturalization and of allegiance is distinct from that of domicile.' Page 452. Lord Westbury, in the passage rei ed on by the counsel for the United States, began by saying: 'The law of England, and of almost all civilized countries, ascribes to each individual at his birth two distinct legal states or conditions,—one by virtue of which he becomes the subject of some particular country, binding him by the tie of natural allegiance, and which may be called his political status; another by virtue of which he has ascribed to him the character of a citizen of some particular country, and as such is possessed of certain municipal rights, and subject to certain obligations, which latter character is the civil status or condition of the individual, and may be quite different from his political status.' And then, while maintaining that the civil status is universally governed by the single principle of domicile (domicilium), the criterion established by international law for the purpose of determining civil status, and the basis on which 'the personal rights of the party—that is to say, the law which determines his majority or minority, his marriage, succession, testacy, or intestacy— must depend,' he yet distinctly recognized that a man's political status, his country (patria), and his 'nationality,—that is, natural allegiance,'—'may depend on different laws in different countries.' Pages 457, 460. He evidently used the word 'citizen,' not as equivalent to 'subject,' but rather to 'inhabitant'; and had no thought of impeaching the established rule that all persons born under British dominion are natural-born subjects.

Lord Chief Justice Cockburn, in the same year, reviewing the whole matter, said: 'By the common law of England, every person born within the dominions of the crown, no matter whether of English or of foreign parents, and, in the latter case, whether the parents were settled, or merely temporarily sojourning, in the country, was an English subject, save only the children of foreign ambassadors (who were excepted because their fathers carried their own nationality with them), or a child born to a foreigner during the hostile occupation of any part of the territories of England. No effect appears to have been given to descent as a source of nationality.' Cockb. Nat. 7.

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Mr. Dicey, in his careful and thoughtful Digest of the Law of England with Reference to the Conflict of Laws, published in 1896, states the following propositions, his principal rules being printed below in italics: "British subject' means any person who owes permanent allegiance to the crown. 'Permanent' allegiance is used to distinguish the allegiance of a British subject from the allegiance of an alien, who, because he is within the British dominions, owes 'temporary' allegiance to the crown. 'Natural-born British subject' means a British subject who has become a British subject at the moment of his birth.' 'Subject to the exceptions hereinafter mentioned, any person who (whatever the nationality of his parents) is born within the British dominions is a natural-born British subject. This rule contains the leading principle of English law on the subject of British nationality.' The exceptions afterwards mentioned by Mr. Dicey are only these two: '(1) Any person who (his father being an alien enemy) is born in a part of the British dominions, which at the time of such person's birth is in hostile occupation, is an alien.' '(2) Any person whose father (being an alien) is at the time of such person's birth an ambassador or other diplomatic agent accredited to the crown by the sovereign of a foreign state is (though born within the British dominions) an alien.' And he adds: 'The exceptional and unimportant instances in which birth within the British dominions does not of itself confer British nationality are due to the fact that, though at common law nationality or allegiance in substance depended on the place of a person's birth, it in theory at least depended, not upon the locality of a man's birth, but upon his being born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the king of Enl and; and it might occasionally happen that a person was born within the dominions without being born within the allegiance, or, in other words, under the protection and control of the crown.' Dicey, Confl. Laws, pp. 173-177, 741.

It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born.

III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.

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In the early case of The Charming Betsy (1804) it appears to have been assumed by this court that all persons born in the United States were citizens of the United States, Chief Justice Marshall saying: 'Whether a person born within the United States, or becoming a citizen according to the established laws of the country, can devest himself absolutely of that character, otherwise than in such manner as may be prescribed by law, is a question which it is not necessary at present to decide.' 2 Cranch, 64, 119.

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In Inglis v. Sailors' Snug Harbor (1830) 3 Pet. 99, in which the plaintiff was born in the city of New York, about the time of the Declaration of Independence, the justices of this court (while differing in opinion upon other points) all agreed that the law of England as to citizenship by birth was the law of the English colonies in America. Mr. Justice Thompson, speaking for the majority of the court, said: 'It is universally admitted, both in the English courts and in those of our own country, that all persons born within the colonies of North America, while subject to the crown of Great Britain, were natural-born British subjects.' Id. 120. Mr. Justice Johnson said: 'He was entitled to inherit as a citizen born of the state of New York.' Id. 136. Mr. Justice Story stated the reasons upon this point more at large, referring to Calvin's Case, Blackstone's Commentaries, and Doe v. Jones, above cited, and saying: 'Allegiance is nothing more than the tie or duty of obedience of a subject to the sovereign under whose protection he is; and allegiance by birth is that which arises from being born within the dominions and under the protection of a particular sovereign. Two things usually concur to create citizenship: First, birth locally within the dominions of the sovereign; and, secondly, birth within the protection and obedience, or, in other words, within the ligeance, of the sovereign. That is, the party must be born within a place where the sovereign is at the time in full possession and exercise of his power, and the party must also at his birth derive protection from, and consequently owe obedience or allegiance to, the sovereign, as such, de facto. There are some exceptions which are founded upon peculiar reasons, and which, indeed, illustrate and confirm the general doctrine. Thus, a person who is born on the ocean is a subject of the prince to whom his parents then owe allegiance; for he is still deemed under the protection of his sovereign, and born in a place where he has dominion in common with all other sovereigns. So the children of an ambassador are held to be subjects of the prince whom he represents, although born under the actual protection and in the dominions of a foreign prince.' Id. 155. 'The children of enemies, born in a place within the dominions of another sovereign, then occupied by them by conquest, are still aliens.' Id. 156. 'Nt hing is better settled at the common law than the doctrine that the children, even of aliens, born in a country, while the parents are resident there under the protection of the government, and owing a temporary allegiance thereto, are subjects by birth.' Id. 164.

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In Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. 242, decided (as appears by the records of this court) on the same day as the last case, it was held that a woman born in South Carolina before the Declaration of Independence, married to an English officer in Charleston during its occupation by the British forces in the Revolutionary War, and accompanying her husband on his return to England, and there remaining until her death, was a British subject, within the meaning of the treaty of peace of 1783, so that her title to land in South Carolina, by descent cast before that treaty, was protected thereby. It was of such a case that Mr. Justice Story, delivering the opinion of the court, said: 'The incapacities of femes covert, provided by the common law, apply to their civil rights, and are for their protection and interest. But they do not reach their political rights, nor prevent their acquiring or losing a national character. Those political rights do not stand upon the mere doctrines of municipal law, applicable to ordinary transactions, but stand upon the more general principles of the law of nations.' Id. 248. This last sentence was relied on by the counsel for the United States, as showing that the question whether a person is a citizen of a particular country is to be determined, not by the law of that country, but by the principles of international law. But Mr. Justice Story certainly did not mean to suggest that, independently of treaty, there was any principle of international law which could defeat the operation of the established rule of citizenship by birth within the United States: for he referred (page 245) to the contemporaneous opinions in Inglis v. Sailors' Snug Harbor, above cited, in which this rule had been distinctly recognized, and in which he had said (page 162) that 'each government had a right to decide for itself who should be admitted or deemed citizens.' And in his treatise on the Conflict of Laws, published in 1834, he said that, in respect to residence in different countries or sovereignties, 'there are certain principles which have been generally recognized, by tribunals administering public law [adding, in later editions, 'or the law of nations'], as of unquestionable authority'; and stated, as the first of those principles: 'Persons who are born in a country are generally deemed citizens and subjects of that country.' Story, Confl. Laws, § 48.

The English statute of 11 & 12 Wm. III. (1700) c. 6, entitled 'An act to enable his majesty's natural-born subjects to inherit the estate of their ancestors, either lineal or collateral, notwithstanding their father or mother were aliens,' enacted that 'all and every person or persons, being the king's natural-born subject or subjects, within any of the king's realms or dominions,' might and should thereafter lawfully inherit and make their titles by descent to any lands 'from any of their ancestors, lineal or collateral, although the father and mother, or father or mother, or other ancestor, of such person or persons, by, from, through or under whom' title should be made or derived, had been or should be 'born out of the king's allegiance, and out of his majesty's realms and dominions,' as fully and effectually, as if such parents or ancestors 'had been naturalized or natural-born subject or subjects within the king's dominions.' 7 Statutes of the Realm, 590. It may be observed that, throughout that statute, persons born within the realm, although children of alien parents, were called 'natural-born subjects.' As that statute included persons born 'within any of the king's realms or dominions,' if of course extended to the colonies, and, not having been repealed in Maryland, was in force there. In McCreery v. Somerville (1824) 9 Wheat. 354, which concernedt he title to land in the state of Maryland, it was assumed that children born in that state of an alien who was still living, and who had not been naturalized, were 'native-born citizens of the United States'; and without such assumption the case would not have presented the question decided by the court, which, as stated by Mr. Justice Story in delivering the opinion, was 'whether the statute applies to the case of a living alien ancestor, so as to create a title by heirship, where none would exist by the common law, if the ancestor were a natural-born subject.' Id. 356.

Again, in Levy v. McCartee (1832) 6 Pet. 102, 112, 113, 115, which concerned a descent cast since the American Revolution, in the state of New York, where the statute of 11 & 12 Wm. III. had been repealed, this court, speaking by Mr. Justice Story, held that the case must rest for its decision exclusively upon the principles of the common law, and treated it as unquestionable that by that law a child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject; quoting the statement of Lord Coke in Co. Litt. 8a, that 'if an alien cometh into England, and hath issue two sons, these two sons are indigenae, subjects born, because they are born within the realm'; and saying that such a child 'was a native-born subject, according to the principles of the common law, stated by this court in McCreery v. Somerville, 9 Wheat. 354.'

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