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Posted on 3/14/21 at 1:02 pm to the808bass
quote:
Covid is being tracked like no other disease has been tracked. Deaths attributed to Covid are being done in a fashion that they have never been done before. You are dancing around this like a Solid Gold regular.
In this thread, I have had nothing to say whatsoever on the subject of how COVID deaths are tracked other than it has no bearing on how hospitals are reimbursed, which is the entire subject of my exchange with BeefDawg. It was then and is still now incredibly random that you jumped into an exchange about my quibble with his misunderstanding of hospital reimbursement with an aside about CDC's attribution of COVID death. So let's go back to me questions which you didn't answer
1. Do you agree with BeefDawg's claim that hospitals are systematically creating covid inpatients by falsifying tests in order to bump the reimbursement?
2. Do you agree with BeefDawg's claim that hospitals are extending inpatient stays for patients who don't need it in order to make money?
I'll add a third.
3. Does CMS' or anyone else's method of death attribution regarding COVID having any bearing on how hospitals are reimbursed?
Posted on 3/14/21 at 2:07 pm to longwayfromLA
quote:
Do you agree with BeefDawg's claim that hospitals are systematically creating covid inpatients by falsifying tests in order to bump the reimbursement?
No. That’s built into the test.
quote:
Do you agree with BeefDawg's claim that hospitals are extending inpatient stays for patients who don't need it in order to make money?
No. They would love to get them out the door quicker.
quote:
Does CMS' or anyone else's method of death attribution regarding COVID having any bearing on how hospitals are reimbursed?
The testing for Covid absolutely does. We’ve made a mint on Covid testing. (Though that pails I comparison to losses in other areas.)
And reimbursement is definitely enhanced with a positive Covid test.
Posted on 3/14/21 at 4:16 pm to longwayfromLA
quote:You're a piece of work.
So you consider words to mean the opposite of their plain meanings.
Any reasonable person understands that if a person gets admitted to a hospital for lung cancer complications and ends up on a ventilator, while having zero covid symptoms, but tests positive for covid, and then the hospital codes them as a covid patient on a ventilator so they can get an undeserving extra $39,000 from the CARES Act, is “falsifying” the data.
Someone being admitted to the hospital with a heart attack, while having zero covid symptoms, but testing positive for covid, and the hospital telling HHS this was a “covid patient” so they can get extra money is “falsifying” the data.
A ME/coroners office picking up a 95 year old person who died in hospice who suffered from Alzheimer’s and an assortment of co-morbidities, but then post-mortem tests positive for covid, so they code it a covid death so the facility gets CARES Act dollars, is “falsifying” the data.
Again, just because you want to play silly semantics games and act like you don’t see it that way doesn’t mean I backed off of shite or changed the subject. You’re clearly being purposely obtuse and obfuscating, which is why you have zero credibility.
This post was edited on 3/14/21 at 5:12 pm
Posted on 3/15/21 at 11:14 am to the808bass
So hospitals aren't committing the fraud that BeefDawg said and hospitals obviously aren't keeping patients around for no reason. So you agree with me.
That’s not the question. Clearly hospitals are better off testing for COVID. My question was does the CDC’s attribution of cause of death have any bearing on hospital reimbursement? So take a bowel obstruction inpatient who incidentally has COVID. If he dies, do hospitals get a differential in reimbursement if that death is attributed to COVID by the CDC?
quote:
Does CMS' or anyone else's method of death attribution regarding COVID having any bearing on how hospitals are reimbursed?
The testing for Covid absolutely does. We’ve made a mint on Covid testing. (Though that pails I comparison to losses in other areas.)
And reimbursement is definitely enhanced with a positive Covid test.
That’s not the question. Clearly hospitals are better off testing for COVID. My question was does the CDC’s attribution of cause of death have any bearing on hospital reimbursement? So take a bowel obstruction inpatient who incidentally has COVID. If he dies, do hospitals get a differential in reimbursement if that death is attributed to COVID by the CDC?
Posted on 3/15/21 at 11:19 am to longwayfromLA
quote:
So hospitals aren't committing the fraud
IIRC. Weren’t hospitals required by the CDC (via “recommendation by the WHO) to classify pretty much everything to a Covid death. I mean, if the rules are changed to allow it, it isn’t fraudulent on the part of the hospital or their staff members. I will have to see if I can dig up the thread, as there was documentation provided within it. It may take awhile, as it was months ago and the search function on this site is less than stellar.
Posted on 3/15/21 at 11:45 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
IIRC. Weren’t hospitals required by the CDC (via “recommendation by the WHO) to classify pretty much everything to a Covid death. I mean, if the rules are changed to allow it, it isn’t fraudulent on the part of the hospital or their staff members. I will have to see if I can dig up the thread, as there was documentation provided within it. It may take awhile, as it was months ago and the search function on this site is less than stellar.
About 10,000 "COVID deaths" are from suicide, homicide and accidents. George Floyd is a COVID death, did you know that?
Yes, the government imposed a ridiculous (and very political) process for classifying all sorts of deaths "COVID deaths." Months ago I read that if we had counted flu deaths in 2017-18 the way we are COVID deaths, there would have been at least 250,000 flu deaths that season. Which makes sense when you think about it - think of all the heart attacks, cancer deaths, etc that took place that year at a time the decedent was carrying the flu bug.
Posted on 3/15/21 at 11:58 am to BeefDawg
quote:
Any reasonable person understands that if a person gets admitted to a hospital for lung cancer complications and ends up on a ventilator, while having zero covid symptoms, but tests positive for covid, and then the hospital codes them as a covid patient on a ventilator so they can get an undeserving extra $39,000 from the CARES Act, is “falsifying” the data.
Yeah, this is abject nonsense. A “reasonable person who understands" this is someone who has no idea what they are talking about. I couldn’t imagine a scenario where a mechanically ventilated lung cancer patient with COVID was not impacted by the disease, but let’s leave that aside for the doctor for moment. What you don’t seem to be able to get through your thick skull is that the hospital by law has to put his COVID diagnosis into the medical record. In this instance, it would be both malpractice and fraud not to. Once the diagnosis in the medical record, it contributes to complexity score associated with that patient, and reimbursement is to some degree always based on that complexity. This is true, to one degree or another, for all of the 70,000 ICD-10s. If your lung cancer patient has diabetes – it would up the CMI and we’d get paid more for that. If he had hypertension – it would up the CMI and we’d get paid more for that. If he had halitosis it would up the CMI and we could get paid more for that. Why would COVID be any different? It’s not falsifying anything to accurately capture the diagnoses of patient in his medical record as required by law. Trump signed a law that said hospitals got paid a certain amount when they treated patients with a COVID Dx in their medical record. That law interacts with several laws that require hospitals to enter into the medical record the result of diagnostic tests. If you don’t want hospitals to get paid for this particular outcome, your beef is with Trump for signing Cares and/or with several decades of Congresses for structuring the coding the system the way it is structured. Hospitals aren't falsifying anything.
quote:
Someone being admitted to the hospital with a heart attack, while having zero covid symptoms, but testing positive for covid, and the hospital telling HHS this was a “covid patient” so they can get extra money is “falsifying” the data.
Someone being admitted to the hospital with a heart attack, while having zero diabetes symptoms, but testing positive for diabetes, and the hospital will as required by law appropriate code this “diabetes patient” so they can get extra money for following the law.
quote:
Again, just because you want to play silly semantics games and act like you don’t see it that way doesn’t mean I backed off of shite or changed the subject. You’re clearly being purposely obtuse and obfuscating, which is why you have zero credibility.
Dude you began by saying hospital were.
quote:
falsify positive testing and diagnosis, as well as ventilator usage and extended stay for folks who may not have needed it.
Which I interpreted to mean you were saying that hospitals falsify positive testing and diagnosis, as well as ventilator usage and extended stay for folks who may not have needed it. I felt good in that interpretation because instead clarifying what you meant when I pushed back, you went about insisting that middle management at hospital were falsifying reports for bonus money, that I was naive in thinking that doctors wouldn’t commit fraud, and you purported to introduce me to the Medicare Fraud Unit which tracks the Medicare fraud and over-billing abuse you were accusing hospitals of committing. And then eight messages later, after you realize how stupid your accusation was, you have now backtracked to say that you never meant that doctors and staff were making charts up. It's fine. I’m glad we both now agree only a true idiot could believe that hospitals were falsify positive testing and diagnosis, as well as ventilator usage and extended stay for folks who may not have needed it for COVID patients.
Posted on 3/15/21 at 2:13 pm to longwayfromLA
quote:This is useless, because you’re an apologist assclown playing context twister like a little bitch.
longwayfromLA
There was no new complexity score up-coding for the CARES Act you dipshit. People at HHS aren’t getting patient charts with CPT codes. All they cared about is did John Smith have covid, was he admitted, did he have covid-pneumonia, and did he utilize a ventilator. It’s a report with a bunch of names and boxes checked off saying yes or no to those questions.
The CARES Act lists out 3 qualifiers and then pays set dollar amount for each qualifier. It doesn’t say shite about complexity scores and diagnosis codes. It doesn’t have varying amounts for complexity scores with hundreds of different possible payment levels based on scores. You might want to STFU for a minute and go read the goddamn thing. Or don’t, and keep being an ignorant fricktard.
And again, trying to act like hospitals and doctors can’t commit fraud or game the system is beyond laughable and makes you look like a complete dickhead. Everyone knows the healthcare industry is wrought with fraud and abuse. Insurance carriers have entire departments devoted to investigating and prosecuting doctors and healthcare facilities. The FBI has a special unit that does it. The HHS also does. Social Security does. Medicare does.
We all hear every year how healthcare costs are rising and one of the big factors is fraud, of which over 30% are healthcare workers/doctors/admin/hospitals/etc.
You are an absolute douche for trying to tell everyone here that it didn’t happen with the CARES Act. You’re part of the healthcare system, so all you’ve done is prove you have zero credibility.
Now frickoff already, Mr. Clown Apologist.
Posted on 3/15/21 at 4:59 pm to David_DJS
quote:
About 10,000 "COVID deaths" are from suicide, homicide and accidents.
I thought the CDC stayed it was quite a bit more than that. Dammit, now I need to go do some more research.
Posted on 3/15/21 at 5:24 pm to BeefDawg
quote:
There was no new complexity score up-coding for the CARES Act you dipshit. People at HHS aren’t getting patient charts with CPT codes. All they cared about is did John Smith have covid, was he admitted, did he have covid-pneumonia, and did he utilize a ventilator. It’s a report with a bunch of names and boxes checked off saying yes or no to those questions.
Yes stupid and that report has to match the medical records of the patients contained therein which would capture the both the positive COVID test as well as the COVID as primary or secondary Dx as hospitals are by required by law to document the results of diagnostics tests.
quote:
And again, trying to act like hospitals and doctors can’t commit fraud or game the system is beyond laughable and makes you look like a complete dickhead. Everyone knows the healthcare industry is wrought with fraud and abuse. Insurance carriers have entire departments devoted to investigating and prosecuting doctors and healthcare facilities. The FBI has a special unit that does it. The HHS also does. Social Security does. Medicare does.
You
quote:
all they have to do is get a handful of middle-management underlings who desperately want to keep their jobs while enjoying some fat bonuses they were promised to make sure final reports lean a certain direction.
Also You
quote:
You seem to want to demand I meant someone didn’t even test and doctors and staff are just making charts up and fabricating codes out of thin air. But that’s not what
and again You
quote:
And again, trying to act like hospitals and doctors can’t commit fraud or game the system is beyond laughable and makes you look like a complete dickhead.
Make up your mind.
Anyhow, as I've said before, no one is saying people in healthcare don't illegal rip off Medicare. I am saying now and have been saying this whole time, the method of fraud you are suggesting is stupid and no one would do it that way because they would get caught so easily. It is a scheme that a not particularly bright child would come up with. No wonder it so appeals to you.
Posted on 3/15/21 at 6:57 pm to jimmy the leg
quote:
I thought the CDC stayed it was quite a bit more than that. Dammit, now I need to go do some more research.
No need. I was going by memory from a few months ago. Regardless of what the numbers are or how up to date they may be, the overriding point stays the same - COVID has killed 500,000 Americans like cops are hunting black men down. It's bullshite contrived by Leftists to advance a political agenda.
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