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re: What is the source of our rights?
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:28 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:28 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Many founders who wrote about the right to life owned slaves.
An individuals rights end where another person's begins. It doesn't matter that one person temporarily denies another person the free exercise of their rights, the person still retains their rights, since rights are God given.
This is why communist states promote atheism. If the state is the ultimate power then they gove rights and can also take them away.
2
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:33 am to geoag58
quote:
An individuals rights end where another person's begins. It doesn't matter that one person temporarily denies another person the free exercise of their rights, the person still retains their rights, since rights are God given.
quote:
There are better questions
What is a right?
quote:
This is why communist states promote atheism. If the state is the ultimate power then they gove rights and can also take them away.
But in your scenario, the state didn't take anything away
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:37 am to Mike da Tigah
Quill and ink
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:47 am to uziyourillusion
quote:
What good is a “god given right” if man can take it away so easily? At the end of the day, rights are effectively man made.
I'd disagree just a little. They aren't man made. They are man "protected" or "man eroded".
The survival instinct shows that we innately understand we own ourselves. Everything else flows from that simple understanding of human nature.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:48 am to SlowFlowPro
When you post the comprehensive list of mathematical formulas used to derive everything
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:50 am to Wednesday
quote:
When you post the comprehensive list of mathematical formulas used to derive everything
So we don't even have a concept of what all rights are or will be? Noted.
That certainly complicates things.
You can't define them, list them, and argue we are on a journey to figure them out without any end in sight.
That sounds like a rational, functional system to me
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:51 am to Mike da Tigah
The prime right is the right to defend one's existence and existence is a gift from God.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:53 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
What is the source of our rights?
The source of our rights is The Golden Rule... the ones with the gold make the rules. If you dont like them then you take away the gold and you make the rules.
Been this way in the world since humans started walking on two legs
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:54 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
But in your scenario, the state didn't take anything away
Slaves, at the time, were not considered people, they were considered property. The founder was righting about freedoms of the individual.
The founders were not in agreement on the issue of slavery, but slavery was legal in all of the colonies. If slavery had not existed do you think the rights enumerated would have been different?
Communists approach their system from the aspect that the state is all powerful and there is no God. The state decides the rights of the individual.
God is perfect and immutable and man, like the slave owning founder writing about inalienable rights is not.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:57 am to Mike da Tigah
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:57 am to geoag58
quote:
It doesn't matter that one person temporarily denies another person the free exercise of their rights, the person still retains their rights, since rights are God given.
What does "God-given rights" actually mean if someone who is stronger than you can take away those "given" rights if they want too?
What functional difference is there between "God-given rights" and rights you have to defend with force/threats of force?
This post was edited on 3/29/26 at 11:00 am
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:58 am to geoag58
quote:
The founders were not in agreement on the issue of slavery, but slavery was legal in all of the colonies. If slavery had not existed do you think the rights enumerated would have been different?
Slavery is only one example, and I used it specifically for his example ("the right to life").
Women were also denied rights
Men who didn't own property were denied rights
If these rights are from a god, you'd expect more universality.
quote:
Communists approach their system from the aspect that the state is all powerful and there is no God. The state decides the rights of the individual.
But if rights are from a god, this is irrelevant, as you said:
quote:
It doesn't matter that one person temporarily denies another person the free exercise of their rights, the person still retains their rights, since rights are God given.
Communist states can't take anything away and these people still retain their rights, since they are God given.
quote:
God is perfect and immutable and man, like the slave owning founder writing about inalienable rights is not.
If we just say "god crates rights", but man cannot be trusted to describe rights, we can skip the first question and get to these 2
quote:
Who/what defines what a right is?
What is the comprehensive list of rights?
The list of god-given rights may end up being incredibly short, for all we konw.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 10:59 am to Roll Tide Ravens
quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life
Unless you're a slave
quote:
Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Unless you're a slave, woman, if you don't own property, etc.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:03 am to Azkiger
quote:
What does "God-given rights" actually mean if someone who is stronger than you can take away those "given" rights if they want too?
What functional difference is there between "God-given rights" and rights you have to defend with force/threats of force?
inalienable
/in-al'y?-n?-b?l, -a'le-?-/
adjective
That cannot be transferred to another or others.
"inalienable rights."
Incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred to another; not alienable.
"in inalienable birthright"
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:05 am to geoag58
quote:
inalienable
/in-al'y?-n?-b?l, -a'le-?-/
adjective
That cannot be transferred to another or others.
"inalienable rights."
Incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred to another; not alienable.
"in inalienable birthright"
Cool, now explain how that definition answers my question.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:14 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote:
Who/what defines what a right is?
What is the comprehensive list of rights?
The list of god-given rights may end up being incredibly short, for all we konw.
The founders definitions of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a pretty good starting point.
Think of all the laws that are derived with the commerce clause as the starting point. Isn't the commerce clause the basis of the argument in support of gay marriage?
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:18 am to geoag58
quote:
The founders definitions of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a pretty good starting point.
We have shown this is an incorrect, man-made list of rights they didn't believe in fully, and doesn't reflect what deities have declared to be these god-given rights
quote:
Think of all the laws that are derived with the commerce clause as the starting point. Isn't the commerce clause the basis of the argument in support of gay marriage?
For all of the thousands of examples of government power that the CC authorizes, you picked one outside of it
The 14th Amendment is the primray defense of gay marriage. I'd start by reading Griswold and Loving to get a primer.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:33 am to Azkiger
quote:
What does "God-given rights" actually mean if someone who is stronger than you can take away those "given" rights if they want too?
What functional difference is there between "God-given rights" and rights you have to defend with force/threats of force?
Man does not possess the attributes of God. Therefore we must always be prepared to defend our rights when imperfect man intentionally or inadvertently tramples upon our rights. This does not mean that the rights given to us by God have dissappeared.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:53 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote:
The founders definitions of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a pretty good starting point.
We have shown this is an incorrect, man-made list of rights they didn't believe in fully, and doesn't reflect what deities have declared to be these god-given rights
God's commandment:
"You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’fn
38This is the first and greatest commandment.
39A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’fn
40The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”
I think all individual rights are derived from this commandment.
quote:
For all of the thousands of examples of government power that the CC authorizes, you picked one outside of it
The 14th Amendment is the primray defense of gay marriage. I'd start by reading Griswold and
Yes the commerce clause is not the basis. Wasn't the CC contract provision used as one the reasons to make it the law of the land?
Posted on 3/29/26 at 12:37 pm to geoag58
quote:
Man does not possess the attributes of God. Therefore we must always be prepared to defend our rights when imperfect man intentionally or inadvertently tramples upon our rights. This does not mean that the rights given to us by God have dissappeared.
Cool.
What functional difference is there between "God-given rights" and rights you have to defend with force/threats of force?
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