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re: What is the income range for "middle class" per the board?
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:03 pm to NYNolaguy1
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:03 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
I realize that most live outside of NY and that its a high cost of living area, but most houses north of NYC were built prior to the 1970s, some in 1870s
Meh - again, I recognize that places like Chelsea and even more modest areas of NYC (and Frisco, NOVA, etc.) have areas too valuable to redevelop new, so they're renovated. And, yes, my budget would have to skyrocket or become meaningless to encompass all the extreme situations you might encounter in Beverly Hills, Pacific Heights, virtually any residential area in Manhattan, etc.
But, even doing comparables - a renovated home in those areas will be nicer (maybe not bigger - space is a premium in these truly expensive areas), nicer appliances, more efficient A/C, etc., than houses people were living in just 30 and 40 years ago.
And in places like Houston, Dallas, New Orleans, $500k or $600k (easily within the reach of the professional class, which I still consider largely middle class, if we want to include upper middle class folks in that definition) can buy you a home that would have been the envy of millionaires, again just 40 or so years ago.
This post was edited on 9/27/17 at 1:22 pm
1
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:04 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
that won’t come close to paying the additional sq footage.
For a house heated by oil (popular in the 70s) vs natural gas? Also factor in a lot of houses didnt have A/C either.
Have you ever had to pay a heating bill north of $1000 because gasoline is high that month?
What I am more interested in is this statement, however.
quote:
What items would you subtract out to make the math work?
A LOT!
Which items?
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:04 pm to MSMHater
According to this board, its $500k - $1 million. In reality its more like $50k.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:05 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:Here’s fun fact for you. Minimum wage != middle class.
Here's a fun fact for you. The minimum wage today is roughly 80% of what it was from the 50s-80s. Spin that however you want, doesn't change the fact that today's minimum wage worker DOES have it harder than yesterday's minimum wage employee.
This post was edited on 9/27/17 at 1:07 pm
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:05 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:
Here's a fun fact for you. The minimum wage today is roughly 80% of what it was from the 50s-80s. Spin that however you want, doesn't change the fact that today's minimum wage worker DOES have it harder than yesterday's minimum wage employee.
What's to spin?
I don't think this tells you what you think it tells you
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:07 pm to MSMHater
Better question what is disability income during hunting season?
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:09 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
I've often said that people making 300k have more in common with a single mom making 50k than they do with Buffet
They are living almost exactly the same - just with nicer cars, nicer houses, bigger kitchens and nicer vacations.
Compare to Buffet who can (maybe he doesn't, he's famously thrifty, but he could) reserve an entire island for a month to entertain guests, never touch his luggage, fly on a private plane to any location on the planet with a runway - basically on about 2 hours notice to his people, etc.
And forget his lifestyle - what he's literally capable of - rebuilding a school after a tornado with his own assets, granting wishes for hundreds of cancer kids, just a range of capabilities that rivals or exceeds some political subdivisions concentrated in an individual.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:09 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:
Here's a fun fact for you. The minimum wage today is roughly 80% of what it was from the 50s-80s. Spin that however you want, doesn't change the fact that today's minimum wage worker DOES have it harder than yesterday's minimum wage employee.
Here's one for you. Keep pushing policies to incentivize poor people staying poor and start offering incentives for two parent households, staying sober and getting an education and the wage would rise.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:11 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
ere's one for you. Keep pushing policies to incentivize poor people staying poor and start offering incentives for two parent households, staying sober and getting an education and the wage would rise.
Feel free to show any examples of me pushing said policies.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:11 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:
The minimum wage today is roughly 80% of what it was from the 50s-80s.
Probably shouldn't have imported about 1/3 of Mexico over the past 30 years to compete with and depress the wages of entry level/unskilled and menial laborers then, wouldn't you agree?
Unskilled labor is never going to be valued highly - ever again. Easy solution- get some skills. Give the employer something for the money and you won't have to worry about minimum wage. Folks will be competing for your services.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:16 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
But, even doing comparables - a renovated home in those areas will be nicer (maybe not bigger - space is a premium in theses truly expensive areas), nicer appliances, more efficient A/C, etc., than houses people were living in just 30 and 40 years ago.
I agree with that, but I'd also stipulate there were other items at play that made it not necessarily an apples to apples comparison:
1)Most homes were heated with oil (more expensive than today)
2)There was an oil embargo, gasoline was more expensive
3)A lot of "starter" homes didnt have a/c (making homes cheaper than today).
4)Use of less durable materials made construction cheaper, but happened more often (also resulting in houses worth less in present value dollars)
I would argue that if you moved into a 1970s house you would have less amenities for possibly the same amount of money. You wouldnt have a/c, cable, or internet, but your heating and renovation costs would be higher because houses simply werent built as well.
This post was edited on 9/27/17 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:18 pm to Iosh
quote:Fair statement. For the most part they heavily overlap via 'unearned income'. But fungibility of wealth-derived income certainly allows for more effective tax avoidance.
class is defined by wealth not income
Alternately, a middle class business owner who sells his business, generating a one-time income >$1,000,000 then reverts to $60K/yr, is obviously not überwealthy.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:21 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:Yeah. Kinda my point. Thanks for helping make it.
Also factor in a lot of houses didnt have A/C either.
quote:If you’re heating your house with gasoline, you’re doing it wrong
Have you ever had to pay a heating bill north of $1000 because gasoline is high that month?
quote:#1 is cars. Used to come with roll up windows, no a/c hell not even a radio. You can’t even get a car that way today. 72 month loans... didn’t exist... because bought what they could afford. #2 is house size. #3 entertainment and food. The explosion spending on expensive food options and restaurants is well chronicled. #3.5. Cable and TV. OTA is still around and one can purchase a <25” TV (the largest available in he 70s) for really cheap.
Which items?
For most families if you cut auto expense and house expense in half... they’d be quite comfortable.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:21 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Probably shouldn't have imported about 1/3 of Mexico over the past 30 years to compete with and depress the wages of entry level/unskilled and menial laborers then, wouldn't you agree?
Unskilled labor is never going to be valued highly - ever again. Easy solution- get some skills. Give the employer something for the money and you won't have to worry about minimum wage. Folks will be competing for your services.
I don't disagree with you. Except for one thing. There are ,let's just face it, a lot of stupid people in this country who are never going to be able to do more than minimum wage type jobs. So we essentially have three choices.
1. Force companies to pay wages that are high enough that these people can at least survive on said wages
2. Subsidize the lower wages with welfare
3. Let those people perish due to their inability to provide for themselves.
Now, 3 isn't going to happen, it just isn't. We've been doing 2 for years, it's not working so well. How about we try 1? Which , of course, would only be possible if we did things like oh I don't know, deport the millions who are here illegally and close the borders to further illegal immigration and only allow those who can add to the US as a whole into this country legally?
Worth a try at least.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:22 pm to TigerFanatic99
quote:The average household income is skewed because of the very high income earners.
The overall average household income in 2015 was $67,565.
For me a better measurement is the median household income. That means half of all households earn less and half of all households earn more.
In 2016 the median household income was $59,038, which was a new record high for median household incomes in the U.S.
There was an informative article on what constitutes the middle class in the U.S. and how that middle class is doing just yesterday.
The middle class is back — or so it seems.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:23 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:This. Manual labor has never been worth less. There is no reason the minimum wage should be equal (much less higher) than it was in the past.
Unskilled labor is never going to be valued highly - ever again.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:24 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
If you’re heating your house with gasoline, you’re doing it wrong
:facepalm:
In case you didnt know, most houses were heated with heating oil, a derivative of crude oil, which was pricee off of gasoline.
In the 1970s there was an oil embargo which shot up heating prices though the roof.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:24 pm to navy
quote:
Notice ... that is just "combined FEDERAL taxes." That % is a lot fricking higher when you factor in state taxes, local/county taxes, city taxes, sales tax ... tax....tax....tax....tax....tax....tax....tax.
Solid middle class household, several years back I tallied all taxes that our household paid and we were up around 40%. I just maxed out my 401k contribution to lower my payroll taxes. No mortgage or child exemptions left so I'm trying to lower my taxes anyway I can.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:25 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:What a horrible, arrogant view of humanity.
There are ,let's just face it, a lot of stupid people in this country who are never going to be able to do more than minimum wage type jobs.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:27 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:You clearly have no sense of humor.
In case you didnt know, most houses were heated with heating oil, a derivative of crude oil, which was pricee off of gasoline.
quote:Im aware. I’m also aware of other economic factors.
In the 1970s there was an oil embargo which shot up heating prices though the roof.
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