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re: Watched Rambo III - why was Russia interested in Afghanistan?
Posted on 6/13/21 at 6:43 am to TheFonz
Posted on 6/13/21 at 6:43 am to TheFonz
That is a fallacy, Afghanistan has been a door mat for foreign armies for centuries.
The answer to why is that Russia has always also wanted to own Iran to have ice free ports on the Indian Ocean. This was step one due they caused the "emergency" in Afghanistan in order to step in.
The answer to why is that Russia has always also wanted to own Iran to have ice free ports on the Indian Ocean. This was step one due they caused the "emergency" in Afghanistan in order to step in.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 6:44 am to TheFonz
quote:
Short answer is there was a commie revolution in Afghanistan in 1978. There was an insurgency against the new commie rulers. Soviets invade in 1979 to support Afghan commie government. I’m sure, as it is with such things, there are multiple, more complicated reasons.
It's a little backwards, as the commie revolution (like in many Asian countries) was directly provoked by the USSR.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 6:50 am to OleWar
The fundamentalist came to power AFTER Russia left a vacuum.
The Pashtuns are also in Pakistan and have always been pretty much autonomous. Reagan had to fight his own CIA and Dept of State to get those stinger missiles to the Norther Alliance while they were sending money to the drug lords. A friend was involved as an aide to Reagan and Charlie Wilson was the best man at his wedding. Of course, the movie was Hollywooded up quite a bit.
The Pashtuns are also in Pakistan and have always been pretty much autonomous. Reagan had to fight his own CIA and Dept of State to get those stinger missiles to the Norther Alliance while they were sending money to the drug lords. A friend was involved as an aide to Reagan and Charlie Wilson was the best man at his wedding. Of course, the movie was Hollywooded up quite a bit.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 9:27 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
But little reference to that was made in the source literature.
I'll admit I was a bit young when the war started, but I have spent much time in Afghanistan, all of the Central Asian states, Russia and the Caucuses. One of my professors was a KGB agent in Iran during the revolution. He admits partial responsibility for it. I have talked with ex Mujahideen and officers of the DRA.
First Afghanistan is not Iran. You know the history of these two countries. Cultural and religious differences shape Russian thinking.
The Soviets made a mistake with Iran. The assumption was that the new government in Iran would have a fair amount of communists and leftists involved. They did not see that the Islamists would pull off a coup and purge the communists.
Which importantly now colors their thinking when it comes to Afghanistan.
They are fully aware of what exists in Central Asia, especially in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. It had only been fifty years since the Soviets had killed Muslims in the 10 of Thousands, they had even relocated Chechens and Tatars to these areas. If you are a KGB officer assigned to Tajikistan SSR or the Uzbek SSR in the mid 1970s, what do you think you are spending your time doing? What is the potential threat to the regime?
Posted on 6/13/21 at 9:32 am to thelawnwranglers
We cannot dismiss, either, that both Russia and the U.S. have weapon systems and tactics that need to be tested in real battlefield situations. We get involved in a military conflict somewhere and then Russia does the same and vice versa. The MIC of both countries is always looking to further their own goals and profits. Just as an aside, Afghanistan is also rich in minerals, which the whole world wants and needs. The tribes in Afghanistan won't cooperate with each other, however, to effectively profit from this resource.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 9:38 am to CitizenK
quote:
The fundamentalist came to power AFTER Russia left a vacuum.
I think we are having an issue with terms in this argument.
I understand that there is a difference in the minds of many between the traditional Islam of a village in the middle of Afghanistan and the more modern fundamentalist movements which are more modern and globalist and scope.
But from the point of view of either; a Communist, Secularist, Christian, Hindu, or Jew that wants to establish a government over them is the enemy.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 9:43 am to OleWar
quote:
The Soviets made a mistake with Iran. The assumption was that the new government in Iran would have a fair amount of communists and leftists involved. They did not see that the Islamists would pull off a coup and purge the communists.
In retrospect, this alliance worked well for both countries.
quote:
What is the potential threat to the regime?
The major threat in Central Asia was two-fold. In the 20s and 30s there was a worry about the possibility of a pan-Islamic movement, but there was also a worry about a pan-Turkic one, as Turkish nationalist sentiment extended into the area too. Largely the practice of the religion was tightly controlled, but that was being undermined by one major organization, Pakistan's ISI, which was making contacts starting in the 1960s with the purpose of using them to try to secure access to Central Asia. ISI had wings dealing with US interests, the C-Wing, as well as a wing that was aimed at controlling Islamists, S-Wing. A KGB officer's time in the region would largely be spent ensuring that access remained open to India, which at the time was under a relatively right-leaning government, though weapons agreements, economic aid, and intelligence sharing was increased too.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 10:02 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
In retrospect, this alliance worked well for both countries
You might have to explain this. My mind goes to billions of dollars of weapons sales to Iraq.
quote:
Pakistan's ISI
Well this would be an interesting story. The life of Pakistani agents operating in Soviet Central Asia prior to the war in Afghanistan.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 10:39 am to OleWar
The Pashtun group has always been autonomous with their dancing boys and large ferocious dogs. Still to this day they are more about tribal traditions than actually being fundamentalists, which they also are
The north was ruled by Alexander the Great's successors for a few centuries. Lots of blue eyed folks that way
The north was ruled by Alexander the Great's successors for a few centuries. Lots of blue eyed folks that way
Posted on 6/13/21 at 10:41 am to TheFonz
quote:
we lost.
We didn't really try. Politicians tied the hands behind our military's back and told them to be nice.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 10:44 am to thelawnwranglers
They thought we were getting a foothold in the middle east, so they wanted Afghanistan to be a buffer between them and the US warmongers.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 10:48 am to CitizenK
Yes. Whenever there was a report of violence when I was in Afghanistan it could have been one of several things.
1. US/GoA vs Taliban
2. Pashtuns vs some other ethnic group
3. Pashtun tribe vs Pashtun tribe
4. Pashtun dude vs other Pashtun dude fighting over dancing boy.
1. US/GoA vs Taliban
2. Pashtuns vs some other ethnic group
3. Pashtun tribe vs Pashtun tribe
4. Pashtun dude vs other Pashtun dude fighting over dancing boy.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 10:56 am to OleWar
Our mistake was not learning from the Russians. Those people in Afghanistan live to fight. There will never be peace there. We were foolish to send our people and give them exactly what they wanted.
We should have learned from the Red Army's mistakes. Nuke every viable target in the country, we were justified in such a response, then let them live in a radioactive wasteland.
At that time(9/11) the nation was united and would have backed ANY response to the attacks. The world would have feared and respected us. We let an opportunity slip away.
Let the Paks deal with the refugees, they were neck deep behind the mess anyhow. If they don't like it, tell them they can have what the Afghans got. If they fuss anymore, take out their nukes. Those people understand one thing, brute power.
We should have learned from the Red Army's mistakes. Nuke every viable target in the country, we were justified in such a response, then let them live in a radioactive wasteland.
At that time(9/11) the nation was united and would have backed ANY response to the attacks. The world would have feared and respected us. We let an opportunity slip away.
Let the Paks deal with the refugees, they were neck deep behind the mess anyhow. If they don't like it, tell them they can have what the Afghans got. If they fuss anymore, take out their nukes. Those people understand one thing, brute power.
This post was edited on 6/13/21 at 11:02 am
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:14 am to thelawnwranglers
The US aided a lot more than insurgents in Afghanistan. Reagan out pressure on Russia across Africa and Central America as well for two reasons, Russia had over extended itself and its economy was in shambles before it was pushed to spend more.
The reason that the USSR finances were in shambles was from their grand and glorious multi year plans to increase things like steel production, farm output, and everything else. Take steel, it was shiite steel and to increase production they mandated increased use of it in lots of construction. Pressure vessels used in refining, and chemicals were mandated to be double the wall thickness of what was needed, also in buildings,there was so much rebar that it difficult for concrete to get through the gaps.
The reason that the USSR finances were in shambles was from their grand and glorious multi year plans to increase things like steel production, farm output, and everything else. Take steel, it was shiite steel and to increase production they mandated increased use of it in lots of construction. Pressure vessels used in refining, and chemicals were mandated to be double the wall thickness of what was needed, also in buildings,there was so much rebar that it difficult for concrete to get through the gaps.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:19 am to OleWar
Those populations have always been for or against Russia, depending on what the options were, and for hundreds of years. Decades alter the Russian military is about 50% of those ethno-religious groups.
Russia;s biggest problem for decades has been abortion whenever so that today's Russian woman is more likely than not to be able to carry a baby to term due all the abortions which she has had by the time she's 30. One reason for so many abortions is that Russian men are more that likely to have descended into chronic alcoholism before th age of 30, like a liter before work, a liter to maintain at work and a liter after work of vodka.
Russia;s biggest problem for decades has been abortion whenever so that today's Russian woman is more likely than not to be able to carry a baby to term due all the abortions which she has had by the time she's 30. One reason for so many abortions is that Russian men are more that likely to have descended into chronic alcoholism before th age of 30, like a liter before work, a liter to maintain at work and a liter after work of vodka.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 11:23 am to OleWar
quote:
You might have to explain this. My mind goes to billions of dollars of weapons sales to Iraq.
The alliance really started working well for both countries after 1989. Russia helped Iran with its nuclear program, with Russia giving technical expertise to help establish a nuclear plant in Bushehr, and helping them with their missile program, with Iran eventually developing its own defense industry, especially after Russia reorganized their own defense industry in 2002. The alliance is so important to some in the Russian security circle that it has been described as the key axis to Russian FP. Since the SCW, you've seen far more cooperation militarily in Syria, and you've seen some cooperation in Central Asia as well. Iran even helped Russia with starting its own drone program after Iran and Turkey surged ahead of other regional players in drone warfare. You can see the makings of a Iran, Russia, China axis too, but India presents a problem there, as Iran and Russia have defense agreements with India, while China views India as a major threat. India also represents China's interest in Afghanistan, as they want to encircle India, as China is trying to buy off Pakistan too.
quote:
Well this would be an interesting story. The life of Pakistani agents operating in Soviet Central Asia prior to the war in Afghanistan.
It would be. Pakistan is concerned about Pashtun nationalism taking hold and affecting its border region, which has a lot of Pashtun people. Their S-Wing even went against the interests of the civilian government many times, with open accusations of bringing ruin to the country leveled by the prime minister's son in 2014 against the head of intelligence. If there is one place where there is a clear difference between the civilian and military interests of a country, it is probably Pakistan, which has had the quintessential "state within a state" problem since its founding.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 12:59 pm to thelawnwranglers
Heroin.
Also, meth. They recently discovered that a common weed in afghanistan contains large of amounts of ephedrine, the precursor to meth. Afghans now making the best meth sold in europe.
Also, meth. They recently discovered that a common weed in afghanistan contains large of amounts of ephedrine, the precursor to meth. Afghans now making the best meth sold in europe.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 2:55 pm to thelawnwranglers
Fun fact: a lot of the movie was filmed in Yuma AZ with almost all the extras being jarheads. They actually played the Russians
Also, the Sikorsky used was a dressed up CH53 IIRC. it was filmed in the late 80’s.
Also, the Sikorsky used was a dressed up CH53 IIRC. it was filmed in the late 80’s.
Posted on 6/13/21 at 3:28 pm to thelawnwranglers
I watched a very long but fascinating video of Afghanistan during lock down boredom. They have been invaded by LOTS of different people in history.
But none of the countries who conquered them stayed. The reason was always the same... 'Who the hell wants to own this place?'
But none of the countries who conquered them stayed. The reason was always the same... 'Who the hell wants to own this place?'
Posted on 6/13/21 at 3:28 pm to smh4wg
Just another reason we should have nuked them. One we could have dried up a lot of the illicit drug supplies in the world and two the CIA would be broke.
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