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Message
re: War on poverty and programs to help the poor
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:00 am to SoulGlo
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:00 am to SoulGlo
quote:
Libs waste money. Go figure.
Everyone wastes money
And that statement is validated by the claims that most Americans can't cover a small cash emergency expense
This isn't a problem exclusive to liberals
1
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:04 am to Powerman
quote:
Call me crazy but wouldn't it just be easier if we just gave them money
Yep. And it would be cheaper to the US government. It still wouldn't work but it would be cheaper
The problem with the war on poverty is that it starts from the fundamental premise that somehow the people in poverty don't bear the blame for their position. You're not going to fix shite as long as that's the basic premise
quote:your bewilderment stems from thinking that the goal of these programs is to solve anything about poverty. You have tons of different programs because each one of them were sold at the time as another reason why Democrats were awesome.
It just seems like a very poorly thought out bureaucracy that's bloated and does nothing other than piss money down the drain
quote:
If we're going to spend that much money anyway why not just write some fat checks and be done with it?
The vote buying power of programs is much stronger. Think about it. If you just write a check the only vote you buy is the vote of the person that gets the check. If you create massive government programs with entire categories of people who's reason for being is to implement the programs now you got some serious vote buying power
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:08 am to ShortyRob
quote:
The vote buying power of programs is much stronger. Think about it. If you just write a check the only vote you buy is the vote of the person that gets the check. If you create massive government programs with entire categories of people who's reason for being is to implement the programs now you got some serious vote buying power
Right
You can pitch it politically from different angles
Healthcare, housing, food assistance and make each one its own campaign at the time that you deem it to be politically feasible. After their existence you can campaign and lobby for expansion and more money.
All the while the poor remain poor.
If the pattern of providing services in lieu of income is perpetuated how will the poor EVER know how to manage money?
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:12 am to Powerman
I’d rather them...ya know, blow up these fricking programs that are eating up majority of our spending.
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:13 am to Powerman
Here's the reality that nobody can ever stomach. You want to start a war on poverty that will dramatically reduce poverty inside of 10 years? I can tell you how to do it right now
End all welfare programs. No I didn't say end of them and replace them. I said end them
This is how we frick ourselves in a voting Society. We think we can vote to eliminate shite that is impossible to eliminate. The reality is a subset of humans in any group will figure out how to fail spectacularly no matter what the construct of that Society is
The historically proven an Undisputed champion of the world for keeping negative behaviors to a minimum has always been the same. To not incentivize it and let human nature take its course
If you did this then a great many people that typically would end up in poverty will do what humans do and go into survival mode and prevent it from happening to them.
Yes. I know that not all of them will. So with that knowledge you basically have a choice.
You can reduce poverty or you can have poverty programs but you can't do both
End all welfare programs. No I didn't say end of them and replace them. I said end them
This is how we frick ourselves in a voting Society. We think we can vote to eliminate shite that is impossible to eliminate. The reality is a subset of humans in any group will figure out how to fail spectacularly no matter what the construct of that Society is
The historically proven an Undisputed champion of the world for keeping negative behaviors to a minimum has always been the same. To not incentivize it and let human nature take its course
If you did this then a great many people that typically would end up in poverty will do what humans do and go into survival mode and prevent it from happening to them.
Yes. I know that not all of them will. So with that knowledge you basically have a choice.
You can reduce poverty or you can have poverty programs but you can't do both
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:13 am to Powerman
i think a good gauge of how well you interact with poor people is imagining how many of your friends and people you interact with on a day to day basis don't have checking accounts. legit poor people, by and large, don't have checking accounts
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:18 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i think a good gauge of how well you interact with poor people is imagining how many of your friends and people you interact with on a day to day basis don't have checking accounts. legit poor people, by and large, don't have checking accounts
That's why any type of UBI should require direct deposit to either a checking or savings account.
Company I work for has gone to 100% direct deposit. You don't have a choice of receiving a physical check.
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:27 am to Powerman
quote:
That's why any type of UBI should require direct deposit to either a checking or savings account.
Company I work for has gone to 100% direct deposit. You don't have a choice of receiving a physical check.
As i said in my above post. All this discussion is merely deck chair rearranging on the Titanic.
People like me are called heartless because of the things I say on this subject, but frankly, people like me are the only ones who are actually arguing for REDUCING poverty. Everyone else is arguing over how to ameliorate it.
Just think about a few examples.
1. Can we agree that there are at least SOME girls who willfully get pregnant knowing the state will give them money? I actually know 3 personally. All girls who went to HS with my daughter. Every last one of them openly PLANNED on welfare. Since we should be able to all agree these people exist, then we MUST agree that absent the program, the number of welfare would likely fit this equation: Current Number - number of girls who had 2nd thoughts because no welfare.
2. Can we all agree that #1 applies to basically every similar program? SS? Medicare? Unemployment compensation. Food Stamps. Etc etc etc? Can we then all agree that at least SOME of the people who make decisions with the backdrop of these programs would make different decisions without them? Hence, same equation.
Social programs do NOT exist to help the poor or to reduce poverty and suffering.
Social programs exist to make those of us NOT on them feel better about ourselves and superior to our "uncaring" neighbors.
PERIOD
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:30 am to Powerman
i can only imagine the nightmare of federal checking accounts and this population 
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:30 am to ShortyRob
quote:
As i said in my above post. All this discussion is merely deck chair rearranging on the Titanic.
People like me are called heartless because of the things I say on this subject, but frankly, people like me are the only ones who are actually arguing for REDUCING poverty. Everyone else is arguing over how to ameliorate it.
I'm not saying you're wrong but there is a 0% chance that this would be palatable to the general public at this point in time. There is a 0% chance of this outcome occurring.
The UBI idea probably have a very low % of being implemented but it's at least somewhat more palatable to the masses and the people directly affected.
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:33 am to Powerman
quote:
I'm not saying you're wrong but there is a 0% chance that this would be palatable to the general public at this point in time. There is a 0% chance of this outcome occurring.
I know this.
I'm merely pointing out that it is silly to ever.........EVER talk about reducing poverty in this country. That isn't even our goal.
quote:
The UBI idea probably have a very low % of being implemented but it's at least somewhat more palatable to the masses and the people directly affected.
I disagree with you. I think it will be implemented at some point.
And, witin 5 years, every story you've ever seen on poverty will STILL be running because.......it won't have even a remote effect upon poverty unless it actually makes it worse(a distinct possibility). In fact, if you made me bet money right now, I would say that UBI or UBS will result in MORE poverty in the U.S. than we had during the recession at the end of GWB.
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:36 am to Powerman
quote:
War on poverty
where can we surrender?
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:39 am to TigerBait1971
quote:
How bout they get jobs and earn money instead.
Nice theory, but how's that working out?
Posted on 5/24/18 at 7:40 am to Willie Stroker
quote:Exactly how the left wants it to work out
Nice theory, but how's that working out?
Posted on 5/24/18 at 8:54 am to Powerman
Giving poor people money would not help MOST of them.
Most poor people have not learned to make good decisions.
Our education system has failed to teach the consequences of making bad decisions.
Most poor people have not learned to make good decisions.
Our education system has failed to teach the consequences of making bad decisions.
Posted on 5/24/18 at 9:00 am to HempHead
quote:
Slavery is pretty cheap, ya know.
Not as cheap as Irish immigrants,.
Posted on 5/24/18 at 4:11 pm to Powerman
quote:
Everyone wastes money
And that statement is validated by the claims that most Americans can't cover a small cash emergency expense
This isn't a problem exclusive to liberals
Yeah, so why is giving people free cash to waste going to help? We see how free shite has "helped" already.
Posted on 5/24/18 at 4:13 pm to Powerman
That’s crazy that I pay 18k a year so bums can get free shite
Why not cut out the middleman and give them free heroin instead?
Why not cut out the middleman and give them free heroin instead?
Posted on 5/25/18 at 7:10 am to HempHead
quote:
I'll grant health - someone born with a serious congenital defect is not likely to be able to be productive in any way. I believe it is my duty, as a Christian, to help such an individual as much as I can, especially when that person is a member of my community. As far as being born in to it, no. That is not an excuse. Every individual with an IQ north of 85, provided they have the drive and motivation to not be poor, is capabale of not being in poverty. Whether or not they have those things is not the responsibility of society as a whole - it is the responsibility of their family, their community, and themselves to inculcate the proper behavior.
I’ll agree that most are capable of climbing out of the hole, generally speaking, though I think the margin for error is pretty slim for some. But how long does that take and what do you call what they are living in for the 20-30 years prior to that escape?
I think that my point stands that there are fair and reasonable situations beyond an individuals control that can thrust a good, hardworking and intelligent person into bad financial situations.... but..... Ill also say there are a bunch of reasons that are entirely within ones control that we try too hard to excuse.
There’s something to be said for “yea you messed up to get where you are but when you are ready to fix it I’m down to lend a hand because we are all better off if you are a viable member of society” instead of 100% demonizing or creating victim stories for political wins.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 7:26 am to HempHead
quote:
As far as being born in to it, no. That is not an excuse. Every individual with an IQ north of 85, provided they have the drive and motivation to not be poor, is capabale of not being in poverty. Whether or not they have those things is not the responsibility of society as a whole - it is the responsibility of their family, their community, and themselves to inculcate the proper behavior.
Can you point to any research to back up these claims? Because there is quite a lot of literature out there that discusses the effect of being born into poverty.
There are huge differences in academic preparation between a kid born into poverty vs. a kid born into not-poverty. A kid born into poverty is most likely being raised by poorly educated parents (if there are even two parents in the house), surrounded by too many siblings, in often dangerous environments, and without adequate preschool experiences. They enter kindergarten woefully behind the educational standards and by 1st grade, they will already show strong signs of being unable to keep up with the curriculum.
Maybe a great teacher can provide enough one-on-one instruction to remediate them, but great teachers are mostly not working at the schools that poor kids attend. Even if they did, it's pretty much impossible to save the world at an underfunded school with a high teacher-student ratio and the built-in difficulties of dealing with loser parents.
The idea that these kids will one day just pull themselves up by their bootstraps is mostly a myth. Sure, there are outliers; there are those that have a higher-than-average intelligence and figure it out. There are some who latch onto a mentor and take advantage of that opportunity reflective of the American Dream. However, as evidenced by the many impoverished people living on the tax payer's dime, those stories might as well be fairy tales.
I'm not saying giving them money or buying all of their stuff is the perfect answer. I do think it's done a good job of placating the poor and avoiding a humanitarian crisis. However, cutting them off completely and saying "survive or perish" won't do anything to solve the issue of poverty.
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