re: United Methodist Church closing 26 churches in Alabama: declining attendance

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Origen was directly quoting the gospel of the Hebrews and arguing against it. I think there’s a good chance he is directly quoting the text. The part I was concerned with was the quote of the original text of the gospel of the Hebrews, not his opinion on it.

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You said that “modern Christianity has its roots in a female deity, the wife of the Most High God, and the mother of the Lord. That female deity was called Ishtar in Mesopotamia, Asherah in Canaan, and sometimes called the Queen of Heaven, lady Wisdom, and the Holy Spirit” and supported that claim with Origen’s speculative reference, which you, yourself admitted was not necessarily accepting as true (you said he was arguing against it).

While I did originally misunderstand your reference and use of Origen, I still believe you are peddling a conspiracy theory that requires the acceptance of the truth of a writing that was not accepted by Christians throughout history as authoritative or canonical, and it goes against the writings of Scripture and the patristic witness referring to the Spirit in masculine pronouns and forms.

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Nicene-Constantinople Christianity hadn’t yet been invented, so every single church father until the late 400s could be considered a heretic.

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”Invented” is an interesting word choice here. You make it seem like those sorts of decisions pop up out of the blue and without prior basis in biblical warrant.

Even so, your claim about every single father being heretical based on “Nicene-Constantinople Christianity” is not true. A heretic denies and/or teaches against orthodox and necessary truths. The lack of developed understanding and clarity would not make someone heretical any more than a child isn’t a heretic today just because he doesn’t understand proper trinitarian language and relationship.

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You’re a young earth creationist, which is an unsupported minority position that you hold up as truth. Guess you are a conspiracy theorist by your own definition.

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Not even in the same ballpark.

Young earth creationism was the majority report for the Church until the last century, and is still supported directly from the Scriptures today.

You are purporting a view that is not testified to by the Scriptures or even the early followers of Jesus and is based on a document that doesn’t exist today except in a few fragments that were denied as authoritative by those quoting or referencing them.

Your comparison is wholly unfounded.

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And what a Protestant knows and believes varies from Protestant to Protestant.

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The same can be said of many nominal Roman Catholics.

The problem with implicit faith in the RCC is that many Catholics don’t take the time to learn and study what is taught but instead just say something to the effect of “I believe whatever the Church tells me to”, or perhaps not even that much.

There are people in both camps (Protestant and Papist) that know a lot and very little about their professed faith commitments.

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It isn’t supposed to be anything. In some apocryphal works contemporary to the New Testament scriptures, the Holy Spirit is feminine and is Jesus’ mother, which is consistent with God being the Lord’s father in the Old Testament, and is consistent with Asherah/Wisdom being the Lord’s mother in apocryphal texts contemporary to the Old Testament scriptures. Believe it, don’t believe it - makes no difference to me.

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In the primary sources for Old Testament Judaism and Christianity, the Spirit is referred to in masculine or neuter language and pronouns. The testimony of the patristics is either silent or positive towards male language for the Spirit.

There is no support for the idea that Christianity sprung up out of goddess worship. Even if you were to assume Jewish majority teaching of goddess worship, the idea is absolutely foreign to Christianity.

Again, what you are proposing is conspiratorial in nature and goes against the evidence we have for the origins of the Christian faith.

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Be sure to tell protestants this doesn't mean the real "catholic" church in their town.

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The word “catholic” simply means universal or whole. Protestants agree with this statement because we believe there is only one Church of Jesus Christ, made up of professing Christians all over the world. We don’t limit the Church to just one expression or one ecclesiastical form or structure like Catholics and the Orthodox do.

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I've never heard a priest berate a protestant church in my life as a catholic.

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There is no need to. The anathemas of the Councils of Trent and Vatican I still stand.

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Before I became catholic the only people who berated catholics were protestant congregants.

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Please note that my complaints are against the Roman Catholic Church system of doctrine, worship, and leadership, and not against the common laity, except perhaps in issues of discernment. My concern is that the RCC as an institution has anathematized the gospel of Jesus Christ at Trent and leads many people astray. It isn’t about mere disagreements that I “berate” Catholicism as a system, but my desire for the gospel to be faithfully preached and people brought to salvation rather than kept from it.

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I still believe you are peddling a conspiracy theory

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Buddy, the ancient Israelites worshipped a female deity. How many of them worshipped her, I don’t know, but it was widespread for well over 1000 years. That includes all the cultures around them such as Egyptians, Babylonians, and the Canaanites from which they descended.

The early Christians, at least some of them - how many we do not know - continued to worship that female deity. Sorry the truth hurts maybe to you, but there exists the quote of the Gospel of the Hebrews that calls the Holy Spirit Jesus’ mother. The gospel of Philip describes the error (in the author’s opinion) of other Christians worshipping the Holy Spirit as a male deity, arguing that the Holy Spirit is a “woman”. The Quran mentions the idolatry of Christians who worship Jesus and the mother of Jesus as deities (and that they should be worshipping only the one true God).

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”Invented” is an interesting word choice here. You make it seem like those sorts of decisions pop up out of the blue and without prior basis in biblical warrant

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They formulated a rationalization of multiple seemingly contradictory ideas about the nature of God the father and Jesus (and later the Holy Spirit). For hundreds of years the majority of Christians on earth believed what you might call God the Father was not Jesus’ father (Marcionites) which differed from the earlier Pauline Christianity that believed Jesus was the Lord (YHWH). Later majorities of Christian believed God the Father and Jesus were separate (Arianism). Call what they decided and voted on and agreed on at the councils of Nicaea and Constantinople whatever you want.

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Even so, your claim about every single father being heretical based on “Nicene-Constantinople Christianity” is not true. A heretic denies and/or teaches against orthodox and necessary truths. The lack of developed understanding and clarity would not make someone heretical

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So Origen was NOT a heretic? Do you know anything of Marcion and Arius? Just wondering if you think those are or aren’t heretics.

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Not even in the same ballpark. Young earth creationism was the majority report for the Church until the last century, and is still supported directly from the Scriptures today.

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I put young earth creationism in the same bucket as flat earth. Both conspiracy theories are rooted in the Bible but easily debunked by elementary science.

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You are purporting a view that is not testified to by the Scriptures or even the early followers of Jesus and is based on a document that doesn’t exist today except in a few fragments that were denied as authoritative by those quoting or referencing them.

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So? What’s your point?

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The same can be said of many nominal Roman Catholics.

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This is true. However, the Catholic is more likely to be lacking in knowledge while the Protestant is lacking correct theology.

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The people who left these churches should buy back the buildings and hire conservative staff for them.

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That’s what we did and went to Global Methodist. I think the loan was around 200k to buy out UMC but we have close to 2 mil in assets. It is truly amazing how far UMC has gone off the cliff in the short time of being exposed.

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I’m not saying I believe in any of that stuff and I’m not saying it’s right or wrong to worship the Holy Spirit or Mary the mother of God.

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As a not so good catholic, but the husband of a lifelong dedicated catholic who is going to bible study all the time, saying a congregation worships Mary the mother of God is a little strong. There certainly is a prayer given to Mary in the rosary and she is held in a high place and mentioned often. But worship is reserved for God, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I was a protestant for years. I was perplexed by Mary in discussions with my wife and the high place she held with catholics coming from my background. She does not replace Jesus in any way. It is interesting to note that visions of Mary were important in the history of the church both by those in Fatima and in visions in Mexico which may have led to the evangelization in Mexico, Central and South America.
Putting on my old Protestant cap, I am not sure if Protestants have ever had visions of Mary or angels or whatever. I just can't recall.
Finally, except the low down dirty church in Russia, I think we all pull on the same oars.

Okay, all you learned catholics can lay waste to me now.

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In Hebrew the word for spirit is a feminine word and the first mention of her has her hovering over the waters. Elsewhere in Wisdom and Malachi and revelation and many more books, the spirit is feminine.

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Grammatical gender does not directly correlate to gender identity. The Hebrew words for army (tsaba) and sword (herev), for instance, are both of the feminine gender but describe traditionally masculine things.

The Greek, however, tends to use pronouns and participles to denote masculinity and femininity when referring to persons, like God. In the Greek, the word spirit is in the neuter, but it has exclusively male pronouns.

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I gathered from some of your posts you think you know a lot about the Bible but you are sheltered and have a lot of learning to do - just being honest.

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I do have a lot to learn, but it seems that you do, as well

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I don’t know what to tell ya. That many Christians worshipped the spirit as a female and the mother of Jesus is historical fact.

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It's been a while since I read this thread, so I may have missed where you provided evidence for this, but to my knowledge, only some Gnostics actually referred to the Spirit as a female, and the various forms of Gnosticism were condemned as anti-biblical (heretical) from the start.

To say that Christianity has its roots in goddess worship is false, as the sources for the Christian faith do not express God (in any of the persons) as a goddess, and the early Church didn't worship a goddess, either.

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You seem to not be capable of uncoupling what I’m saying with my belief. I’m not saying I believe in any of that stuff and I’m not saying it’s right or wrong to worship the Holy Spirit or Mary the mother of God.

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You're pedaling lies. Whether you believe them or not is not really the point.