Started By
Message

re: Trump Signs EO To Change The Definition Of Birthright Citizenship

Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:23 pm to
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5171 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:23 pm to
quote:

Foreign ministers owe allegiance to their home country in order to do their duties for their sovereign. A necessary function of this is immunity to ensure that they are not compromised by the nation in which they reside on behalf of their sovereign.


How does the court view white list diplomats vs blue list diplomats? The court doesn't seem to have a middle ground even though that's exactly what a blue list diplomat is.

quote:

If these people on US soil did not owe us temporary allegiance while located here, ,they could not be prosecuted, "it would be obviously inconvenient and dangerous to society, and would subject the laws to continual infraction, and the government to degradation".



Right but this is my point.

If someone's interpretation of the 14th is different from the court's opinion... That "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means "owing allegiance to another country". That would still leave room for those people to be subject to our laws.
Posted by Wolfwireless
Member since Aug 2024
4783 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:23 pm to
quote:

I’m really just giddy to see the originalist hoops Thomas and Alito will jump through to allow this.

Oh, you mean like how Roe V Wade got overturned?
Posted by Wolfwireless
Member since Aug 2024
4783 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:27 pm to
quote:

This is the way.
The dem machine has twisted language and definitions to force their Marxism upon the nation.
Bash them over the head like a baby seal with their own club until they beg him to stop.


The Dems are also gonna be big mad that the EO also adds clear definition to mother and father.
As biological born female and biological born male.
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5171 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:29 pm to
quote:

I’m really just giddy to see the originalist hoops Thomas and Alito will jump through to allow this.



I don't think any hoops have to be jumped through.

The question of what did Congress think they were doing at the time, what were they intending to do at the time is easily answered.

The 14th Amendment was the ratification of the Civil Rights Act of 1866, granting citizenship to freed slaves and giving them equal protection of the law.

The never intended to grant abortion rights or citizenship to children of people who happen to be on our soil. Any subsequent Supreme Court opinion that states otherwise doesn't magically make it so.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477219 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:33 pm to
quote:

How does the court view white list diplomats vs blue list diplomats?


That's a function of Congress, which has your answer:

quote:

§ 101.3 Creation of record of lawful permanent resident status for person born under diplomatic status in the United States.

(a) Person born to foreign diplomat—(1) Status of person. A person born in the United States to a foreign diplomatic officer accredited to the United States, as a matter of international law, is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. That person is not a United States citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution. Such a person may be considered a lawful permanent resident at birth.

(2) Definition of foreign diplomatic officer. Foreign diplomatic officer means a person listed in the State Department Diplomatic List, also known as the Blue List. It includes ambassadors, ministers, chargés d'affaires, counselors, secretaries and attachés of embassies and legations as well as members of the Delegation of the Commission of the European Communities. The term also includes individuals with comparable diplomatic status and immunities who are accredited to the United Nations or to the Organization of American States, and other individuals who are also accorded comparable diplomatic status.

(b) Child born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. A child born in the United States is born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and is a United States citizen if the parent is not a “foreign diplomatic officer” as defined in paragraph (a)(2) of this section. This includes, for example, a child born in the United States to one of the following foreign government officials or employees:

(1) Employees of foreign diplomatic missions whose names appear in the State Department list entitled “Employees of Diplomatic Missions Not Printed in the Diplomatic List,” also known as the White List; employees of foreign diplomatic missions accredited to the United Nations or the Organization of American States; or foreign diplomats accredited to other foreign states. The majority of these individuals enjoy certain diplomatic immunities, but they are not “foreign diplomatic officers” as defined in paragraph (a)(2) of this section. The immunities, if any, of their family members are derived from the status of the employees or diplomats.


Congress created the "White list", which is a different type of minister than what's discussed in WKA and they've codified citizenship for their children.

I thought this was going to be the answer and I'm glad you had me look it up to confirm my suspicions.

quote:

If someone's interpretation of the 14th is different from the court's opinion... That "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means "owing allegiance to another country". That would still leave room for those people to be subject to our laws.


You're allowed to have a different opinion of the court, but that doesn't really impact our legal system in any way. Until that ruling is reversed, you're just wrong.
This post was edited on 1/20/25 at 10:35 pm
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5171 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:37 pm to
quote:

That's a function of Congress


Exactly, so if immunity is granted by Congress and I say that the citizenship clause simply means that you have to be born here and not owe allegiance to any other country in order to be a citizen... I don't see how that leads to immunity for illegals.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477219 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:39 pm to
quote:

Exactly, so if immunity is granted by Congress


Limited immunity for a specific group not discussed in WKA is granted by Congress, and if they have children on US soil, those kids are citizens (following WKA).

quote:

I don't see how that leads to immunity for illegals.

Are the illegals on the blue list?
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5171 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:46 pm to
quote:

Limited immunity for a specific group not discussed in WKA is granted by Congress


So is full immunity.

quote:

U.S. law regarding diplomatic immunity has its roots in England. In 1708, the British Parliament formally recognized diplomatic immunity and banned the arrest of foreign envoys. In 1790, the United States passed similar legislation that provided absolute immunity for diplomats and their families and servants, as well as for lower ranking diplomatic mission personnel. This 1790 law remained in force until 1978, when the present Diplomatic Relations Act (22 U.S.C. 254) was enacted to replace it.


quote:

The principal purpose of the 1978 Act was to bring U.S. law into line with the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (which entered into force for the United States in 1972). The 1978 Act imposed a more precise regime and reduced the degree of immunity enjoyed by many persons at diplomatic missions.


quote:

Are the illegals on the blue list?



Congress has never granted them immunity, so no.
Posted by Wolfwireless
Member since Aug 2024
4783 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:48 pm to
quote:

quote:
Just a bit of a short read, help bring you back up to speed.

Glad you agree they're subject to the jurisdiction of the US

Of course, as well they should be. Every country has the right to prosecuted those who break their laws. ;-)
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477219 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:58 pm to
quote:

So is full immunity.

The concept predates the US as a country, so no, it's not a creation a Congress ultimately.

quote:

Congress has never granted them immunity, so no.

Then their children born on US soil are citizens.

Anyone not on the "blue list" who has children on US soil, creates American citizens.

You tried to create a distinction with the "white list", but you didn't, as their children born here are also US citizens.

Cases like WKA were discussing Foreign diplomatic officers, which are, "ambassadors, ministers, chargés d'affaires, counselors, secretaries and attachés of embassies and legations as well as members of the Delegation of the Commission of the European Communities", among others. The so-called "blue list".

Illegals and those on the "white list" are separate from the blue list (which is the exact class of persons discussed in WKA).

Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477219 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 10:59 pm to
quote:

Of course, as well they should be. Every country has the right to prosecuted those who break their laws


Except diplomats



Diplomats are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, so their children born on US soil are not citizens.

Illegals, as you noted, are subject to the jurisdiction of the US, so their children born on US soil are citizens.
Posted by Wolfwireless
Member since Aug 2024
4783 posts
Posted on 1/20/25 at 11:31 pm to
quote:

Except diplomats

Lol yeah, that's true. Cool gif too.
In that instance, I know we could file a grievance with whatever consulate they're from, and :yada:
I should look more into that. But it's 11:30, and gotta work tomorrow morning.. Should just fall asleep instead
Posted by TenWheelsForJesus
Member since Jan 2018
11388 posts
Posted on 1/21/25 at 2:25 am to
quote:

The only argument that this wouldn't apply to illegals is if they're not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, which means they're like diplomats and they can't be prosecuted.


Immunity is limited. Diplomats can be prosecuted for crimes, so the idea that illegals couldn't be if birthright citizenship didn't exist is absurd.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
477219 posts
Posted on 1/21/25 at 7:39 am to
quote:

Immunity is limited.


Diplomatic and Consular Immunity:

quote:

Diplomatic agents enjoy the highest degree of privileges and immunities. They enjoy complete personal inviolability, which means that they may not be handcuffed (except in extraordinary circumstances), arrested, or detained; and neither their property (including vehicles) nor residences may be entered or searched. Diplomatic agents also enjoy complete immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the host country’s courts and thus cannot be prosecuted no matter how serious the offense unless their immunity is waived by the sending state (see the following discussion). While it is not ordinarily of concern to police authorities, they also have immunity from civil suits except in four very limited circumstances: (a) in connection with real property transactions not conducted on behalf of the mission; (b) in connection with any role they may play as executor for or heir to an estate being distributed in the host country; (c) in connection with the performance of professional or commercial activities outside the scope of their official duties; or (d) in respect of counterclaims on the same subject matter when they have been the initiating party in a suit. Finally, they enjoy complete immunity from the obligation to provide evidence as witnesses and cannot be required to testify even, for example, if they have been the victim of a crime.


If these people have children on US soil, those children are not US citizens because the parents are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US (see above).

For those who are not the above and only enjoy limited immunity, their children born in the US are US citizens.
Posted by JoeHackett
Member since Aug 2016
5171 posts
Posted on 1/21/25 at 9:36 am to
quote:

The concept predates the US as a country, so no, it's not a creation a Congress ultimately.



Who claimed full immunity was a creation of Congress? It certainly wasn't me.

I am correct that an act of Congress grants full immunity and partial immunity to two different classifications of diplomats.

quote:

You tried to create a distinction with the "white list", but you didn't, as their children born here are also US citizens.



Congress created a distinction between white list and blue list diplomats. I'm merely pointing that out.
first pageprev pagePage 7 of 7Next pagelast page
refresh

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on X, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookXInstagram