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Thoughtcrime - Where is the line?
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:04 am
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:04 am
He Wrote Disturbing Plans for a School Shooting. But Was That a Crime? - The New York Times
Same debate that sprang up after Parkland, but with a real world example.
Not sure how to square this, personally.
Same debate that sprang up after Parkland, but with a real world example.
Not sure how to square this, personally.
quote:
A mother told the police that Mr. Sawyer, who had seemed troubled in the past, had just bought a gun. A friend of the young man also contacted the police: He was talking admiringly of the school massacre in Parkland, Fla., the friend warned, and hinting at sinister plans of his own.
The police soon detained Mr. Sawyer, 18, a former student at Fair Haven Union High School. They said they had found a journal in his car that laid out disturbing plans for a shooting at the high school. “I’m aiming to kill as many as I can,” the journal read. The school resource officer, the journal went on, might have to be shot “point blank” in the head.
Mr. Sawyer was charged with aggravated assault, two counts of attempted aggravated murder and one count of attempted first-degree murder — all felonies — and held without bail. Many in Fair Haven, a town of 2,700 residents on the western edge of Vermont, exhaled, believing they had stopped America’s next mass shooting.
18
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:07 am to Ag Zwin
It's a good question. How do you know when someone's planning a crime, thinking of planning a crime or writing a Stephen king novel? Are words on a paper enough to show intent? Yes. Honestly they are. Stephen King should be arrested.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:13 am to Ag Zwin
The DA charged him with “attempt” crimes that will not withstand legal scrutiny. It was done to take him off the streets for a few weeks ... while they try to come up with a charge that might actually stick.
This post was edited on 5/5/18 at 11:14 am
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:19 am to Stacked
quote:
It's a good question. How do you know when someone's planning a crime, thinking of planning a crime or writing a Stephen king novel? Are words on a paper enough to show intent? Yes. Honestly they are. Stephen King should be arrested.
Whoever downvoted this has a serious problem in the thought crime department.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:21 am to Ag Zwin
I believe it’s a fair ruling. It seems clear this kid is deeply disturbed, but his charges: aggravated assault, two counts of attempted aggravated murder and one count of attempted first-degree murder — all felonies — and held without bail, need more than a journal entry.
Instead of voluntary treatment which may or may not be followed, the courts need more power to demand some type of treatment or program to try to help this guy before he does hurt someone.
Instead of voluntary treatment which may or may not be followed, the courts need more power to demand some type of treatment or program to try to help this guy before he does hurt someone.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:39 am to Hightide12
quote:
Instead of voluntary treatment which may or may not be followed, the courts need more power to demand some type of treatment or program to try to help this guy before he does hurt someone.
Who draws that line, especially with the heightened activism of the left these days?
I think you have to do something in these cases. I just don’t know what or how.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:40 am to Ag Zwin
What if you just wrote a fictional short story?
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:41 am to Ag Zwin
quote:
Mr. Sawyer, who had seemed troubled in the past, had just bought a gun.
quote:
friend of the young man also contacted the police: He was talking admiringly of the school massacre in Parkland, Fla., the friend warned, and hinting at sinister plans of his own.
quote:
they had found a journal in his car that laid out disturbing plans for a shooting at the high school. “I’m aiming to kill as many as I can,” the journal read. The school resource officer, the journal went on, might have to be shot “point blank” in the head.
Sounds like plenty enough evidence to charge someone
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:43 am to Ag Zwin
quote:
Not sure how to square this, personally.
The prosecutor is equating protected speech with an overt act, which is a component of any inchoate criminal offense. This is a clear overreach and a violation of the 1st Amendment. These charges should be dropped and the D.A. involved should be removed.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:44 am to HailToTheChiz
quote:
Sounds like plenty enough evidence to charge someone
If that's the standard for a crime, everyone in this country with a copy of the Turner Diaries should be sitting in prison.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 11:53 am to Ag Zwin
When does it go from a thought to a conspiracy to commit?
I'd say writing it out in a journal is moving to conspiracy to commit. I'd also say that the crime is in the details.
Example 1
MrLarson: Hey Ag, wanna go rob a bank? Not a crime.
Example 2
MrLarson: Hey Ag, we've planned a detailed robbery of Wells Fargo on the corner of X & Y. We are doing it on May 10th yada yada yada. Crime?
This is just my thought.
I'd say writing it out in a journal is moving to conspiracy to commit. I'd also say that the crime is in the details.
Example 1
MrLarson: Hey Ag, wanna go rob a bank? Not a crime.
Example 2
MrLarson: Hey Ag, we've planned a detailed robbery of Wells Fargo on the corner of X & Y. We are doing it on May 10th yada yada yada. Crime?
This is just my thought.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 12:07 pm to MrLarson
quote:I am thinking WAY back to law school (the last time I gave much thought to criminal law), but this kid was a lone wolf, so conspiracy is not available. In your hypo, we have affirmative acts with another in furtherance of a crime.
When does it go from a thought to a conspiracy to commit?
I'd say writing it out in a journal is moving to conspiracy to commit. I'd also say that the crime is in the details
Posted on 5/5/18 at 12:16 pm to Ag Zwin
The only rational thing is to take away the guns of all the peaceful, law-abiding citizens.
Or else start a serious conversation.
Or blame it on the Russians.
Or else start a serious conversation.
Or blame it on the Russians.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 1:04 pm to MrLarson
quote:
When does it go from a thought to a conspiracy to commit?
Conspiracy?
Conspiracy of 1, your table is ready!
Posted on 5/5/18 at 1:54 pm to Stacked
quote:
Stephen King should be arrested.
Giant spiders living in the sewers posing as clowns
Dude writes about the stupidest things and makes bank.
Kind of like writing a song about a red solo cup.
Humans are gullibly stupid.
Posted on 5/5/18 at 3:17 pm to Ag Zwin
Will anyone argue that this man doesn't have mental issues? Is it prudent to overlook his symptoms of mental illness? Whose responsibility is it to monitor him, given his seemingly certain threat?
The Vermont Supreme Court threw out the charges against him but allowed misdemeanor charges of threatening to stand. He is free to move about the community, except for a banishment from his high school. That didn't stop the Parkland shooter and it probably won't stop this one either.
There were at least as many warning signs about Nikolas Cruz as there are for Jack Sawyer. I think we all agree, after the fact, that Cruz has a dangerous mental illness. The people of Vermont think Sawyer has a dangerous mental illness. His actions certainly support this conclusion.
When will the people be able to remove such a certain threat from their communities?
The Vermont Supreme Court threw out the charges against him but allowed misdemeanor charges of threatening to stand. He is free to move about the community, except for a banishment from his high school. That didn't stop the Parkland shooter and it probably won't stop this one either.
There were at least as many warning signs about Nikolas Cruz as there are for Jack Sawyer. I think we all agree, after the fact, that Cruz has a dangerous mental illness. The people of Vermont think Sawyer has a dangerous mental illness. His actions certainly support this conclusion.
When will the people be able to remove such a certain threat from their communities?
Posted on 5/5/18 at 3:22 pm to Ag Zwin
For the sake of the conversation, here is Vermont's attempt statute:
LINK /
***
In my opinion, the case will turn on whether the prosecutor or trier of fact deem the purchase of the firearm to be an act toward commission.
quote:
Universal Citation: 13 V.S.A. § 9
§ 9. Attempts
(a) A person who attempts to commit an offense and does an act toward the commission thereof, but by reason of being interrupted or prevented fails in the execution of the same, shall be punished as herein provided unless other express provision is made by law for the punishment of the attempt. If the offense attempted to be committed is murder, aggravated murder, kidnapping, arson causing death, human trafficking, aggravated human trafficking, aggravated sexual assault, or sexual assault, a person shall be punished as the offense attempted to be committed is by law punishable.
(b) If the offense attempted to be committed is a felony other than those set forth in subsection (a) of this section, a person shall be punished by the less severe of the following punishments:
(1) imprisonment for not more than 10 years or fined not more than $10,000.00, or both; or
(2) as the offense attempted to be committed is by law punishable.
(c) If the offense attempted to be committed is a misdemeanor, a person shall be imprisoned or fined, or both, in an amount not to exceed one-half the maximum penalty for which the offense so attempted to be committed is by law punishable. (Amended 1971, No. 199 (Adj. Sess.) § 3; 1973, No. 109, § 4, eff. 30 days from April 25, 1973; 1993, No. 95, § 5; 2011, No. 55, § 5.)
LINK /
***
In my opinion, the case will turn on whether the prosecutor or trier of fact deem the purchase of the firearm to be an act toward commission.
This post was edited on 5/5/18 at 3:24 pm
Posted on 5/5/18 at 3:29 pm to Ag Zwin
Mental health needs to be taken more seriously. It's not a big deal to analyze someone and get them help. Obviously that could be abused though.
But some thought crimes are worse than real crimes
But some thought crimes are worse than real crimes
Posted on 5/5/18 at 3:29 pm to Ag Zwin
I want to know what you were thinking when you posted this.
I want to know what you think about me replying to you.
(just got my Junior G-Man Robert Mueller prosecutor kit in the mail, trying it out!)
I want to know what you think about me replying to you.
(just got my Junior G-Man Robert Mueller prosecutor kit in the mail, trying it out!)
Posted on 5/5/18 at 8:53 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
The DA charged him with “attempt” crimes that will not withstand legal scrutiny. It was done to take him off the streets for a few weeks ... while they try to come up with a charge that might actually stick.
Good point.
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