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re: The Structure of Capitalism...

Posted on 11/16/22 at 3:38 pm to
Posted by BugAC
St. George
Member since Oct 2007
57012 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 3:38 pm to
quote:

The highest paid often do the LEAST.


The highest paid often have experience and seniority. They gained that experience by doing more than the other guy, which is how they got to where they are. Again, you want more, DO MORE. Stop being jealous of others simply because you are lazy.

quote:

Doing that and becoming an owner just means you get to now exploit other workers.


What % of personal risk is the hourly worker putting towards starting a business? ZERO.

Also, explain how you "exploit other workers" when employment is voluntary?

This post was edited on 11/16/22 at 3:39 pm
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
467197 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 3:46 pm to
quote:

AnarchoDawg


Posted by jackamo3300
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2004
2901 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 6:11 pm to
Capitalism has its exploitations and disappointments, but what it ensures to anyone who is resourceful, disciplined, patient, not given to the gratification-now syndrome that they can earn enough to sustain themselves and their families - and even the possibility of "becoming rich."

Communism demands full adherence to oppressive authoritarianism, robs man of his basic desires and aspirations to be self-sufficient and to own property and make it work for him both as an abode and a revenue producer.

Ownership of private property has always been an outrage to the doctrinaire Communist.

Why it took the King Bolshevik Stalin to execute pogroms, fire-bombings and mass starvations to get his country's farmers to accept the collectivization of their farms.

But Communism in itself is a lie, an unworkable attempt at Utopia.

Just about all of its Founders - Lenin, Trotsky, Kautsky, Bernstein, Plekhanov - admitted that first, it could only be successful in strong capitalist countries.

Therefore, admitting themselves that it had to co-opt through violence what others have achieved through their resourcefulness and work ethic to make their bloody ideology succeed.

So in effect admitting to the subservience and inferiority of communism to capitalism.

Based solely on the callow expectation that in such advanced, successful capitalist societies there would be more of the discontented and exploited.

That didn't work out as they planned either.

It didn't work among the proletariat whom they so much hoped and depended upon that they would willingly offer themselves as cannon fodder for the Revolution.

Another miscalculation. And it hasn't worked anywhere since.

Am sure you're another one who has somehow convinced himself that you've got the revisionist version of it that will work this time around.

Here's an excerpt from one you'd be proud of - C. Wright Mills a marxist purist - who looked adoringly at Bolshevism, but lamented its failures - which provided even more evidence of the chronic tendency of communism to fail, since Bolshevism was the very essence of Leninist-Marxism:

Much of marxism after Marx is an attempt to explain why the wageworkers of advanced capitalist societies have not generally become proletarianized, much less performed the act of proletarian revolution.

But with bolshevism, this is not the central point, if only because bolshevism as theory is not generally about "advanced capitalist societies" and as practice it does not occur in such societies.

It is about a backward, predominantly agricultural society that is autocratic as well as pre-industrial.

It is also a search for ways to further activate the process of proletarianization, and so the advent of socialism in political ways.

And as a successful revolution, bolshevism became the point upon which all other marxian movements in all nations have had to focus.

All marxists have had to confront it in every way and this is, of course, as we shall see, still the case today.


So what query logically follows?

Why should I or any sentient being opt for an ideology that even its Founders didn't have faith in, even admitting that it is subservient and inferior to the system that upsets it the most.

Rather than capitalism which has brought us the modern conveniences, allowed man to realize his utmost aspirations, has dried more tears than it caused, has even gotten us to other planets.


Posted by RCDfan1950
United States
Member since Feb 2007
38790 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 6:54 pm to
Capitalism works for talented and productive people who are the Middle Class, as they are motivated by being able to retain the fruits of their creative enterprise. They are incentivized to invent, refine and push the limits of artistic and technological power. And the collective GNP expands.

While Socialism works for the less talented and productive, as they are guaranteed a share of the collective productivity, they end up with a small share anyway as collective productivity decreases, because the incentive of reward is removed for the productive folks. Further, there are many in the 'Lower Class' who by exceptional enterprise of their own, or working for the entrepreneurial Middle Class, can climb into the Middle Class themselves.

I'm not sure about the collective wisdom of either System in regard to personal happiness/Spirituality, as both economic models are problematic. But like BH says, "money can't buy happiness, but it can buy a boat".

Envy will be a big problem in any scenario wherein some people are more affluent than others. Especially the extremes in an advanced civilization where everybody knows how affluent their peers are. That is where we are now. And new Ideologies such as Secular Moral "Effective Altruism" will be the challenge for those who claim "God-given Rights".
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
25223 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 6:56 pm to
Aren't you late for your Antifa meeting.
Posted by TomJoadGhost
Alabama
Member since Nov 2022
1003 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 6:56 pm to
Capitalism rewards capital, but it’s better than the alternatives.
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
25223 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:00 pm to
quote:

Commies don't work anyway

What the frick would you know?


An old friend spent time with some high ranking Russians as the USSR was falling apart. They knew it was coming.

Soviet workers liked to quip, "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work."

If a Russian saw a long line, they would join it not knowing was at the other end, because not matter what it was it was something they needed.

Russian factory managers who wanted small nails would set the quota by the count. If they wanted large nails, they would set it by weight.
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
25223 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:03 pm to
quote:

All the things you warn about with socialism are happening in capitalism. 'Socialist' programs are the most functional and have the highest approval in this country.


Socialist have to build walls to keep people in. America needs walls to keep them out.
Posted by beerJeep
Louisiana
Member since Nov 2016
37751 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:19 pm to
quote:

No, I'm an anti-state communist, an anarcho-communist, not in favor of states even existing in the long run.


The only good communist is a dead communist. Get fricked, pinko.
Posted by WildManGoose
Member since Nov 2005
4600 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:32 pm to
quote:

Is your commission more or less than the value your sale brought?
He would get the total value under another system? How does that work? I doubt he's selling his own homemade pottery.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
297624 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:37 pm to
quote:


Soviet workers liked to quip, "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work."


Yep, the ultimate "kick the can down the road.:

Socialism is a ponzi scheme where the poor always die.
Posted by UtahCajun
Member since Jul 2021
3118 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:50 pm to
Nope. Just means you overvalue yourself and/or skills
Posted by LSU12223
Member since Sep 2016
1482 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:53 pm to
The little worthless workers who are replaceable take on 0 risk in the company. Shut up
Posted by UtahCajun
Member since Jul 2021
3118 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:54 pm to
quote:

Are you saying capitalism has been proven to 'work'? What exactly works about it?


You sound like someone who grew up in a capitalist country. My wife grew up in a socialist one. Would you care to let her tell you just how wrong you are?
This post was edited on 11/16/22 at 7:55 pm
Posted by oklahogjr
Gold Membership
Member since Jan 2010
40237 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:55 pm to
quote:

What % of personal risk is the hourly worker putting towards starting a business? ZERO.


Risking 100% of their personal income that the owner will manage it well and execute well enough to afford paying the employee...
Posted by Willie Stroker
Member since Sep 2008
15739 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 7:58 pm to
quote:

Capitalism means you get paid less than you're worth and contribute - the rest goes to the bosses. Smash capitalism!!

Who decides what your labor is worth?

If no one is willing to pay you what you think your labor is worth, what does that tell you?

Thank God capitalism gives people the reality check they need.
Posted by beastieboys
South Jordan, UT
Member since Jan 2008
2193 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 8:00 pm to
Posted by Auburn1968
NYC
Member since Mar 2019
25223 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 8:03 pm to
quote:

Risking 100% of their personal income that the owner will manage it well and execute well enough to afford paying the employee...


I'm sure one of our government political bureaucrats could do it better. Government efficiency works so well!
Posted by Willie Stroker
Member since Sep 2008
15739 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 8:05 pm to
quote:

The workers should own the means of production and split the profits together.
What’s stopping them?

Go for it buddy. Let’s see how that works out for you.

My prediction is eventually someone will be more valuable to the team. For the workers to keep them on the team, they will have to pay them more or lose that person to another job.

Then what?
Posted by Willie Stroker
Member since Sep 2008
15739 posts
Posted on 11/16/22 at 8:07 pm to
quote:

Nah, don't want to exploit people.

So in a business where all the workers own the means of production, how do you handle it when one person clearly makes better well informed decisions than every other moron that thought this business model was a great idea?
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