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Message
The "Solutions" to Police Brutality - Misconduct - etc
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:38 pm
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:38 pm
As with many things in life where humans are involved, almost everyone looking at the problem of police misconduct or worse are starting from the wrong mental paradigm. Ranging from people who excuse nearly all negative police/civilian interactions to those who practically see the police as roving gangs in all negative police/civilian interactions, ALL of that is missing the point.
Too many people think you can "train" your way out of the problem. Or, maybe pay your way out of it or, maybe just get all the citizens to do exactly the right thing in the right moment. But all of that is a pipe dream. We're dealing with humans and a subset of humans will ALWAYS frick shite up. The difference is, when most of us frick up at work, no one dies.
So, to me, this really is a simple math exercise. Sure, the math might change a bit if you improve training etc etc, but math it remains. And that math is simple.
Negative police/civilian interactions are a function of the total number of police/civilian interactions. And ya know what? We the fricking people CAN improve the result of that math with some policy changes.
I mean, let's face it. Sure. Some of these bad results come out of situations we will ALWAYS want cops to be present for. But, let's be honest here, more than a few of them are a direct result of cops doing OUR bidding to do stupid shite.
A substantial portion of the blame for Eric Garner's death for example goes to the fact that NYC had a stupid fricking law that it then asked its cops to go frick with people over.
If you want to reduce the number of dead or maimed citizens at the hands of police officers, simple. Start examining the reasons officers are forced..........BY OUR DUMB ASSES......to go bother people.
Too many people think you can "train" your way out of the problem. Or, maybe pay your way out of it or, maybe just get all the citizens to do exactly the right thing in the right moment. But all of that is a pipe dream. We're dealing with humans and a subset of humans will ALWAYS frick shite up. The difference is, when most of us frick up at work, no one dies.
So, to me, this really is a simple math exercise. Sure, the math might change a bit if you improve training etc etc, but math it remains. And that math is simple.
Negative police/civilian interactions are a function of the total number of police/civilian interactions. And ya know what? We the fricking people CAN improve the result of that math with some policy changes.
I mean, let's face it. Sure. Some of these bad results come out of situations we will ALWAYS want cops to be present for. But, let's be honest here, more than a few of them are a direct result of cops doing OUR bidding to do stupid shite.
A substantial portion of the blame for Eric Garner's death for example goes to the fact that NYC had a stupid fricking law that it then asked its cops to go frick with people over.
If you want to reduce the number of dead or maimed citizens at the hands of police officers, simple. Start examining the reasons officers are forced..........BY OUR DUMB ASSES......to go bother people.
14
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:54 pm to ShortyRob
Abolish qualified immunity and the higher mens rea standard for police in civil suits and allow police departments to be vicariously liable for the actions of their officers in the same manner as any other employer/employee relationship. The fear of massive civil liability is the method to have better training and more qualified officers.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:56 pm to ShortyRob
What if people just cooperated with police officers instead?
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:58 pm to SCLibertarian
It’s also the way to prevent anyone from working as a police officer. No one will take on that kind of liability for decisions that must be made in a split second.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:05 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
you can "train" your way out of the problem
Can we try this first?
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:05 pm to ShortyRob
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:06 pm to Jack Bauers HnK
quote:
It’s also the way to prevent anyone from working as a police officer. No one will take on that kind of liability for decisions that must be made in a split second.
Truth. I guess people are ready for vigilante justice because that's what's going to happen when you start shutting the departments down.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:07 pm to ShortyRob
Upvoted.
Entirely too many laws on the books that infringe on people's liberty. This, of course, leads to more and more problems w/ citizens and the enforcers for The State.
Entirely too many laws on the books that infringe on people's liberty. This, of course, leads to more and more problems w/ citizens and the enforcers for The State.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:14 pm to ShortyRob
There isn't any real solution.
Additional police training might produce limited positive results but who trains the fools these officers have to interact with everyday?
Cops will make mistakes. Some cops will be the impetus and the cause of a tragedy. But it's society's fools who are most to blame and there is little we can do about them.
Additional police training might produce limited positive results but who trains the fools these officers have to interact with everyday?
Cops will make mistakes. Some cops will be the impetus and the cause of a tragedy. But it's society's fools who are most to blame and there is little we can do about them.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:24 pm to Pesticide
The law has the capacity to distinguish between split-second decisions and clear of acts of tortious conduct. Look at the case OP cited. Eric Garner wasn't killed in a split second decision, he was choked over an extended period of time while telling the cop he couldn't breathe. To add insult to injury, the NYPD was supposed to have made using the chokehold against department policy. And this happened all for the crime of selling a loose cigarette. Both the officer and the NYPD should be sued to high heaven.
The tort system's structure as it is constituted now encourages and incentivizes police misconduct, because of the difficulty of successfully litigating civil rights and tort claims act cases, coupled with the caps on judgments that arbitrarily ascribe a value to a human's life because he or she was killed or hurt by someone with a badge. If we truly valued human life, we'd be outraged and make the necessary changes.
The tort system's structure as it is constituted now encourages and incentivizes police misconduct, because of the difficulty of successfully litigating civil rights and tort claims act cases, coupled with the caps on judgments that arbitrarily ascribe a value to a human's life because he or she was killed or hurt by someone with a badge. If we truly valued human life, we'd be outraged and make the necessary changes.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:30 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
The law has the capacity to distinguish between split-second decisions and clear of acts of tortious conduct.
And people sue and recover damages all the time. What more do you want? We’ve already pointed out what happens at the extreme of your suggested solution. Are you just upset about the Garner situation? Suggesting it’s all because he was selling a loose cigarette is a little intellectually dishonest. Alton Sterling was killed just because he was selling a CD too, right? I’m sure Garner immediately put his hands behind his back and peacefully submitted to arrest.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:39 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
If you want to reduce the number of dead or maimed citizens at the hands of police officers, simple. Start examining the reasons officers are forced..........BY OUR DUMB ASSES......to go bother people.
Reducing the number of retarded laws police have to enforce wouldn't just increase citizen safety, it would increase officer safety. Police would spend less time getting involved in business the government has no place being involved in.
L.E.A.P. (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) is the organization that convinced me that drug prohibition was a complete and utter disaster on a scale that few people realize, and it was the message in your post that clinched it for me.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:39 pm to Jack Bauers HnK
quote:
And people sue and recover damages all the time. What more do you want?
Criminal convictions...
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:46 pm to MoarKilometers
quote:
Criminal convictions...
Go talk to each juror who disagrees with you instead of demanding automatic convictions because of muh feels. Believe it or not, officers have actually been convicted before.
This post was edited on 12/28/17 at 3:47 pm
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:48 pm to el Gaucho
quote:
What if people just cooperated with police officers instead?
THIS
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:48 pm to Jack Bauers HnK
quote:
Go talk to each juror who disagrees with you instead of demanding automatic convictions because of muh feels. Believe it or not, officers have actually been convicted before.
And the Jacksonville Jaguars have made the playoffs, but neither of those things happen very often.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:50 pm to el Gaucho
quote:
What if people just cooperated with police officers instead?
That didn't work out so well for Daniel Shaver. He tried his best to cooperate. He tried to play the police officer's sadistic game of Simon Says, but he lost, so he died.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:53 pm to Jack Bauers HnK
quote:
Go talk to each juror who disagrees with you instead of demanding automatic convictions because of muh feels. Believe it or not, officers have actually been convicted before.
Right, cause there's no case where a judge had thrown out a conviction by a jury to get a cop out of jail quicker. Cause that's exactly why the b.a.r.t. murderer did barely 2 years instead of the ~8 years worth the jury convicted for.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 3:58 pm to ShortyRob
How about just quit breaking the law?
Posted on 12/28/17 at 4:01 pm to AU86
quote:
How about just quit breaking the law?
That's to easy. That's what laws are made for. To break. Like the old NASCAR saying, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin."
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