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Message
re: The right is divided
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:25 am to 10thyrsr
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:25 am to 10thyrsr
quote:\
The LEAST you down voters could do is reply. I don't even know why you disagree without comments!
This is not the place for nuanced feedback.
If you want populist hive-mind knee jerk mindless lockstep reactions, you've come to the right place.
1
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:28 am to 10thyrsr
quote:
I post because I want to find people who agree with me.
I have a mental illness that makes me think people will change their minds if I present the correct arguments with the appropriate facts and data.
I have found that isn't true
I definitely sympathize with your hope re facts and data. FWIW, brother, I post on here for a similar, but different reason.
I post to check my understanding of reality compared with how others see it. Sometimes I get blasted. Sometimes people agree with me. Often I learn from others' opinions and knowledge, AND change my mind.
I also relate to your "mental illness" statement. I have a maladaptive commitment to accuracy of language. Particularly among fellow Trump supporters on this Board, I find myself on the outs with people when I point out Trump's misstatements.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:32 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
If you want populist hive-mind knee jerk mindless lockstep reactions, you've come to the right place.
The speed in which populist collectivism has taken over the Republican party is alarming.
There was no real rift when we were united against Obama.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:37 am to 10thyrsr
The right has always been divided - or at least it has since then end of WW2. Right off the bat you had the Taft v. Eisenhower. America First v. Globalist. You have country club conservatives v.s process conservatives. Libertarians and religious right. I am sure I am forgetting some others.
Seems more pronounced this time around - with people like Americans for Prosperity supporting Trump along with RFK Jr. for President people. There are plenty of other examples. If Trump can get them to all stay in their lane it can be successful. If not, who knows what sort of mess you could have.
I think Trump can and will keep everyone in check, it is more post Trump where you could see some problems keeping everyone happy and together.
Seems more pronounced this time around - with people like Americans for Prosperity supporting Trump along with RFK Jr. for President people. There are plenty of other examples. If Trump can get them to all stay in their lane it can be successful. If not, who knows what sort of mess you could have.
I think Trump can and will keep everyone in check, it is more post Trump where you could see some problems keeping everyone happy and together.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:37 am to 10thyrsr
quote:
Yet the right is divided by conservative (who knows what the hell that means. Nobody can define it exactly), liberty (our forefathers fought for our rights), religious zealouts ( God helped trump win), and financial believers that Trump will bolster their portfolios.
You categories are all wrong.
Conservatives. Not hard to define, contrary to your claim. These are people who still operate according to certain principles such as peace through superior firepower, free market economic principles, equal treatment under the law, the first amendment, freedom of association, etc. Applied equally, even in situations in which we might not be thrilled about it. This is the smallest group.
Populists. Us & Them is the only rule, all other principles are up for grabs in any given situation and can be flushed at a second's notice if Huckster Carlson or somebody else can convince them that some "Elite" is taking advantage of the situation, preferably offering a conspiracy theory as proof (without offering any actual proof). This is now the largest group under the tent.
RINOS. Republicans in name only who simply want to feed of the government trough without regard to either of the above groups.
These are your three groups.
The populists may be useful in combating the RINOS. This is a pleasant surprise, as I have been thinking all along that they would provide no benefit whatsoever.
I think the best case scenario is that the populist movement sweeps through the government on the Republican side and does provide the tremendous benefit of shrinking it greatly. This would be a trajectory altering moment in the history of the US, and I will be the first to thank the populists for it if it happens.
Then the conservatives can come in and fix all the places in which abandoning conservative principles will have now proven inarguably to have been mistakes (tariffs, exempting various groups from paying taxes, foreign policy, etc.)
That's what I am hoping for.
Of course, that could turn on a dime. At any point the populists could decide that it is more in the interest of "The Little Guy" to grow government and since populists adhere to no principles, they would begin to grow it with the fervor that they now want to shrink it.
Populism is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:38 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
The speed in which populist collectivism has taken over the Republican party is alarming.
Indeed.
I would say it quickly filled in the gap following the Tea Party fading.
EDIT: And I would say that social media is the reason for the speed of the takeover.
This post was edited on 12/10/24 at 8:40 am
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:39 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
The speed in which populist collectivism has taken over the Republican party is alarming.
If you have time, would you please briefly explain this? Thanks
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:41 am to 10thyrsr
quote:
The LEAST you down voters could do is reply.
Pro-Tip from someone who has been following message boards since the old dial-up days: b*+ching about your downvotes on a forum such as this is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:41 am to IvoryBillMatt
quote:
If you have time, would you please briefly explain this? Thanks
The left has been about populist collectivism since Karl Marx. Over 100 years.
The right has only been about populist collectivism for 12-15 years.
And those people have taken over the party completely.
What is it you don't understand?
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:42 am to 10thyrsr
quote:I disagree.
The right is divided
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:47 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
The right has only been about populist collectivism for 12-15 years.
If I am understanding this, you are buying into the idea that the major underlying source of the current iteration of conservative populism is socialism? Maybe more specifically national socialism?
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:52 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
What is it you don't understand?
The use of the term "populist."
EDIT: NVM, I just saw your detailed post upthread.
This post was edited on 12/10/24 at 8:56 am
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:56 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
The speed in which populist collectivism has taken over the Republican party is alarming.
Populism, perhaps. Yet ever since Nixon ended the Gold Standard, we all are Keynesians i.e. collectivists. Both parties support — to varying degrees — deficit finance, monetary manipulation, income redistribution, endless bailouts and perpetual welfare.
Nothing changes until this nation returns to sound monetary policies. As it stands, some degree of populist push back is the best we can hope for. That populism is going to come from the Bernie Bro left or the MAGA right, so choose accordingly. It is what it is.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:59 am to 10thyrsr
quote:Telling the truth about this is unpopular, get used to it.
I'm not talking about getting together with leftists. I'm talking about the divide within our own party.
When it comes to the election, RINO’s know they need to follow the leader and pretty much keep their mouths shut about what they dislike.
The minute the election is won, they start reverting into their “we need to be bi-partisan, and try and bring the country together, we should all move left” bullshite.
The only question really is how many will try and feather their own nests at the expense of Trump’s agenda. My guess is quite a few.
That’s why this is going to be a knife fight for 4 solid years.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 8:59 am to IvoryBillMatt
quote:
If you have time, would you please briefly explain this? Thanks
The populist right is similar to the progressive (populist) left in that they are collective and push the success of society over the success of the individual.
Conservatism is an individualist philosophy (pursing self interest elevates all) and populism is the collective response.
quote:
Donald Trump’s populist pitch bumped Democrats off their traditional place in American politics.
Trump took class warfare out of the hands of Democrats and put it squarely in his camp of populism. Tafiffs, etc....were always Democrat gifts to unions for support.
quote:
Once upon a time, Democrats were the party of populism. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, in accepting his renomination for the presidency in 1936, famously said of the wealthy and business interests, "Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me — and I welcome their hatred."
Now, populist ire is directed not at the moneyed interests but at the cultural and political establishment and Donald Trump has replaced FDR as populism's avatar.
LINK
quote:
Those who were more socially conservative but economically liberal constitute 28.9% of the electorate. Drutman called them the "populist quadrant." I call them "Pope Francis voters."
MAGA populism is economically progressive. It doesnt promote individual excellence, it is trying to collevtivize the right.
quote:
There is a consensus among economists that protectionism has a negative effect on economic growth and economic welfare,[7][8][9][10] while free trade and the reduction of trade barriers have a significantly positive effect on economic growth
Trump is not a capitalist. He is a Mercantilist.
quote:
Mercantilism is an economic system that seeks to promote the development of national business and industry over foreign business and industry. It is based on the principle that wealth is finite and trade is a zero-sum game
Conservatives understand the this ISNT a zero sum game, populists to not, and continually scream for a bigger peice of the pie without realizing you attain this on your own.
Mercantilism replaced capitalism as the economic choice for MAGA, its decidedly leftist. It seems to increase COLLECTIVE PROSPERITY instead of individual prosperity.
This post was edited on 12/10/24 at 9:02 am
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:01 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
The right has only been about populist collectivism for 12-15 years.
What specifically are the "populist collective" ideas that you believe "the right" has suddenly embraced over the past 12-15 years?
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:02 am to 10thyrsr
quote:
We won with a slim majority.
312-226
You wanna rephrase your statement?
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:02 am to 10thyrsr
Please don't come in here trying to have an intelligent discussion.
You are either ALL IN or ALL OUT when it come to ALL THINGS TRUMP.
We do our best to keep this an echo chamber so that we are not distracted and disoriented by differing opinions.
And my answer to your question, we will not come together. Too many different interests. There will continue to be high friction as too many dollars are at stake for each interest. When there is lack of friction in DC, the people have lost.
I truly appreciate your effort.
You are either ALL IN or ALL OUT when it come to ALL THINGS TRUMP.
We do our best to keep this an echo chamber so that we are not distracted and disoriented by differing opinions.
And my answer to your question, we will not come together. Too many different interests. There will continue to be high friction as too many dollars are at stake for each interest. When there is lack of friction in DC, the people have lost.
I truly appreciate your effort.
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:04 am to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
we all are Keynesians
The problem is we havent even followed Keynesian economics. Since 2010, we've been practicing MMT.
quote:
MMT is opposed to the mainstream understanding of macroeconomic theory and has been criticized heavily by many mainstream economists.[5][6][7][8] MMT is also strongly opposed by members of the Austrian school of economics, with Murray Rothbard stating that MMT practices are equivalent to "counterfeiting" and that government control of the money supply will inevitably lead to hyperinflation.[9]
quote:
Keynesians believed in stimulating the economy with debt when economic times are bad. The current trend is constant stimulation regardless of economic indicators.
Keynesian economists generally advocate a regulated market economy – predominantly private sector, but with an active role for government intervention during recessions and depressions.
This post was edited on 12/10/24 at 9:09 am
Posted on 12/10/24 at 9:06 am to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
What specifically are the "populist collective" ideas that you believe "the right" has suddenly embraced over the past 12-15 years?
Tariffs
MAHA
Both things we trashed Democrats over prior to Trump.
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