re: The reality of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and South Africa is very sad

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Don't make up things I didn't say.

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Fair enough. That was a true statement, though, however monstrous the suggestion. Not sure if the poster was saying Apartheid should be brought back - just that black SAs are going to end up having been better under that system than what they are going to inherit in a post-White SA.

Same kind of thing with chattel slavery in the American South. Fact: Blacks were materially better off on Southern plantations than they were on the continent of Africa - probably overall better off pre-cotton gin, too. A cage, gilded though it may have been, is not a good thing for human beings. It definitively wasn't. But that doesn't make the argument they were better off, from a material standpoint, false.

So, there is all of that.

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hat was a true statement, though, however monstrous the suggestion.

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And my suggestion that the National Party's formalization of pre-1948 segregation into law caused effects not seen in countries with similar population demographics, namely Botswana, is also true and a supremely benign statement. The point I'm making is that government sanctioned discrimination is going to cause a reaction when that government loses power, and in South Africa's case, we have a clear example of where there was no state sanctioned discrimination in Botswana, and where the rights of Europeans living there were protected, so much so that Botswana had a white interim president, Guy Scott, after serving for four years as VP. Despite the high AIDS rate, Botswana has grown their economy at a rate higher than any neighboring economy, and one of the highest in the world (around 10% from independence to the 90s and around 5% since then, if I recall).

If we were to say that the National Party did not formalize segregation in 1948, and instead continued the informal policy of the previous iteration of the RSA, the Union of South Africa, they would have been better off. Without formalization, you wouldn't have had the militancy of the PAC and ANC in the 1960's, nor would you have the RSA's involvement in the Bush Wars (more than likely, as the ANC's closer relationship with communism after 1948 may not have occurred if integration took place after the Union of South Africa dissolved). And I reject the notion that apartheid would have been better for the blacks, as State sanctioned violence was the norm, and the conditions could not have lasted for long without a full-blown civil war, which is one of the reasons the Botha government was willing to negotiate with Mandela in the late 80's.

The problems with post-Apartheid RSA lay squarely at the feet of the ANC and Jacob Zuma in my view. It would have been better for the country if the ANC had dissolved, as they concentrated too much political power, which served the interests of no one but the political elite. The issues of land expropriation are complicated, as the government owns a large portion of the land which it is unwilling to sell (something like 55% of arable farmland), lease or develop. But suggesting that apartheid would have been better is to purposely ignore the issues in the country after 1976 and the Soweto uprising. Given the way the National Party government sanctioned violence after Sharpsville, the situation they created was unsustainable.

Right. The tribes making (and winning) land claims in South Africa today, in many cases, never occupied the land when the Dutch first settled there. In other cases, farmers are able to prove legal sale from tribes, but have their farms taken anyway. But the anc and more publicly the eff have all but abandoned the idea of ancestral ownership and have made this about redistribution.

I went through the exact same realization as you about a year ago

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Agreed that his was a bad analogy, but yours has problems as well. You assume that “better off” can be measured only in material terms.

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Well, there is a generational problem with comparing testimony from first hand experience.
IE, there are no blacks living in the US today who can say 'Ya know, back in 1840 we were really better off on them plantations.'
However, there are lots of blacks in Zimbabwe and S.A. who say 'We were much better off when whites were in charge.'

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But suggesting that apartheid would have been better is to purposely ignore the issues in the country after 1976 and the Soweto uprising. Given the way the National Party government sanctioned violence after Sharpsville, the situation they created was unsustainable.

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I think you're missing the point. Apartheid is demonstrably, provably better than what they're going through now (a de facto, reverse Apartheid) and what they're going to have after they kill/expel the remaining whites. It didn't have to be that way, of course. A peaceful, multi-ethnic state (what the well-intentioned international liberals claimed they wanted) with majority rule, but protection for minorities (you know, like exists in most places outside of Africa and the Middle East?) would have been the best solution.

Turns out, all those "reactionaries" who suggested that the end of Apartheid would just be the beginning of a white genocide (which happened in almost all the other former colonies) were 100% correct.

Now, within a generation or two, SA will be just another African shithole. And that is not white folks' fault.

Period.

as awful as it sounds, if I had thousands of acres that I knew I couldnt reasonably defend against encroaching invaders with the government's blessing....

I would salt the frick out of my own land and take what possessions I had left, sell it, and bid the homeland goodbye

instead of spending my last days cultivating my property, I would spend my last remaining days turning it into a barren wasteland, insuring nothing could grow for generations

frick them

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A peaceful, multi-ethnic state

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The National Party themselves stared they wanted this, and then would jail anyone remotely associated with the ABC, as they did after Sharpsville when they arrested 18,000 people without charges.

Both the National Party and the ANC can be wrong you know. The NP created the Apartheid system that was unsustainable because of state sanctioned violence towards African blacks. The ANC during Zuma had no interest in the white population and were only interested in consolidating their rule, which they have.

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which happened in almost all the other former colonies) were 100% correct.

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Which ones, other than Zimbabwe? Uganda and Kenya kicked out Indian and Arab merchants I know. Botswana tried to keep it's white population, as did Zambia but many moved away regardless.

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What if you didn't want to leave something in your family for generations? What if you couldn't just leave?

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Then you risk an awful death for you and your family