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re: The Discordance of Predominant Protestant Thought (for Agnostics).
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:48 am to RiverCityTider
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:48 am to RiverCityTider
quote:That's false. If anything, the rise of Arminianism in the past century has coincided with the decline in relevance of Christianity in our society.
Is it just coincidence that the rise of Calvinism coincides with the decline in relevance of Christianity in our society?
No coincidence at all
During the Reformation, faith was made a part of all aspects of the Christian's life. Read up on the Puritans.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:48 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
Is it just coincidence that the rise of Calvinism coincides with the decline in relevance of Christianity in our society?

Posted on 11/7/21 at 9:51 am to FooManChoo
quote:
That's false. If anything, the rise of Arminianism in the past century has coincided with the decline in relevance of Christianity in our society.
Lolzy. “All of society’s ills are caused by the guy opposite me in this current theological debate!!” Can y’all even hear yourselves?
Posted on 11/7/21 at 10:09 am to themunch
Not what I read. All are sinners until redeemed. The redeemed are a group chosen by the divine will of God. That is biblical truth.
Ephesians 1:11-12
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:11-12
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 10:14 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
So ultimately, the predominant Protestant message has devolved into elitist nonsense that rewards the fortunate (elect) and disempowers the outcasts
I have rarely read a more ridiculous and inaccurate thought on this board. And we have a LOT of unintelligent people posting here.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 11:28 am to RiverCityTider
quote:
In short, the "once saved, always saved" notion and the Calvinist promotion of "God's elect" are protestant poison pills
Since when are these absolute?
I never understood them to be from that perspective, that the commitment could be broken.
In Jesus's own words he said to cry out for him upon death.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 12:07 pm to RiverCityTider
This is literally the opposite of reality. The rise of reformed theology is in direct response to easy believism, seeker sensitive, shallow felt needs preaching, and cultural compromise. The 70’s and 80’s were a disaster for the church.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 1:05 pm to IceTiger
Since theology should be about what God has made known and not begin with man’s view of what should or should not be, it is easy to grasp that the elect are saved by God’s grace and without any lost since Jesus said that of all the father gives him will come to him and he will lose none. And Hebrews tell us we have an anchor for the soul our great high priest who ever loves to make intercession for us.
Dump “once saved always saved” and call it what the reformers have always called it, perseverance of the saints.
Dump “once saved always saved” and call it what the reformers have always called it, perseverance of the saints.
This post was edited on 11/7/21 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 11/7/21 at 1:21 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
In short, the "once saved, always saved" notion and the Calvinist promotion of "God's elect" ...
I do not have the time to elaborate on this but here is the problem with "Calvinism".. most people view it as basically a religious version of fate..
Not what "Calvinism" teaches...
Posted on 11/7/21 at 3:30 pm to RiverCityTider
Christianity has a storied past that has been messed with quite a lot
https://postimg.cc/rRcqLm4H
https://postimg.cc/xJL97HXH

https://postimg.cc/rRcqLm4H
https://postimg.cc/xJL97HXH

Posted on 11/7/21 at 4:18 pm to RiverCityTider
Justification by Faith Alone (one of the Pillars of Protestantism) as preached by Martin Luther and protestant denominations has brought us to the age of Moral Relativism (MR). And as some have warned MR represents the most dangerous moral theology in existence today.
Under Moral Relativism there are no moral absolutes and NO boundaries. So Luther's catchy bumper sticker, "Sin greatly, believe mightily still" peddles a disordered moral theology that, in effect, disconnects the will from personal responsibility before God. After all, "Once Saved, Always Saved".
In walks, Sigmund Freud. Freud argues the chief cause of psychological problems afflicting mankind is caused by sexual repression. SO, you can be afflicted with psychosis, a neurosis, you can be a narcissist or bipolar personality. You can be afflicted with a character disorder(s). You can be bisexual, homosexual, transsexual, whatever. You can be a pervert who likes to fondle little girls. No problem. Thanks to our pal Martin Luther you are NOT a sinner. Ladies and Gentlemen, SIN has left the building. What a mess.
Ergo, confitemini ergo alterutrum peccata vestra et orate pro invicem, ut sanari
Under Moral Relativism there are no moral absolutes and NO boundaries. So Luther's catchy bumper sticker, "Sin greatly, believe mightily still" peddles a disordered moral theology that, in effect, disconnects the will from personal responsibility before God. After all, "Once Saved, Always Saved".
In walks, Sigmund Freud. Freud argues the chief cause of psychological problems afflicting mankind is caused by sexual repression. SO, you can be afflicted with psychosis, a neurosis, you can be a narcissist or bipolar personality. You can be afflicted with a character disorder(s). You can be bisexual, homosexual, transsexual, whatever. You can be a pervert who likes to fondle little girls. No problem. Thanks to our pal Martin Luther you are NOT a sinner. Ladies and Gentlemen, SIN has left the building. What a mess.
Ergo, confitemini ergo alterutrum peccata vestra et orate pro invicem, ut sanari
This post was edited on 11/8/21 at 7:15 am
Posted on 11/7/21 at 4:26 pm to Zarkinletch416
quote:
Justification by Faith alone (one of the Pillars of Protestantism) as preached by Martin Luther and Protestant Denominations has brought us to the age of Moral Relativism (MR).
But it also brought us the age of cell phones and the internet, so it’s got that going for it.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 4:42 pm to RiverCityTider
Being non-denominational in my Christian faith has been a blessing. I've attended Baptist churches, Pentecostal and Presbyterian, and eventually I found my own scriptural studies to be somewhat at odds with what their overall teachings are.
I do not believe the Word is allegorical. I believe the Bible was written and meant to be recorded as fact. Things like people preaching about Jonah and the "whale" always bothered me when the Bible states "great fish"- man has just decided it had to be a whale because a 'fish" made no sense to them. I believe that GOD specifically created that great fish just for Jonah's ordeal.
Things like that, I view as twisting the scripture to fit a view. Also, latching onto certain actions that result in Biblical salvation, yet ignoring that salvation can be both won and lost, Biblically, I find to be disingenuous.
It's not easy to be a believer and follow the path without straying. It was never meant to be easy. I don't belong to a church right now, though I wish I could find one to belong to. I just say that I belong to GOD, and I am a sinner that fails Him every day, but I still want to please Him in spite of all my shortcomings. I would probably go to hell right now if I perished at this moment, and I don't like that one bit. Wanting to please The Lord, and actually pleasing Him, are two very different things.
I have a few friends who are atheists. What I have learned about them, in particular, is that they're full of seething anger and hatred towards Christianity. Maybe some of you on the board are agnostic or atheists that take a more pragmatic or passive approach to religious views... but the atheists I know personally are outwardly and loudly anti-Christianity, and actually more open to beliefs of Satanism than the Gospel. They claim nonbelief of GOD or Satan, but fervently push the dogmatic views of Satanism.
I've found I can have productive religious discourse much easier with agnostics than I can with self-described "atheists".
I do not believe the Word is allegorical. I believe the Bible was written and meant to be recorded as fact. Things like people preaching about Jonah and the "whale" always bothered me when the Bible states "great fish"- man has just decided it had to be a whale because a 'fish" made no sense to them. I believe that GOD specifically created that great fish just for Jonah's ordeal.
Things like that, I view as twisting the scripture to fit a view. Also, latching onto certain actions that result in Biblical salvation, yet ignoring that salvation can be both won and lost, Biblically, I find to be disingenuous.
It's not easy to be a believer and follow the path without straying. It was never meant to be easy. I don't belong to a church right now, though I wish I could find one to belong to. I just say that I belong to GOD, and I am a sinner that fails Him every day, but I still want to please Him in spite of all my shortcomings. I would probably go to hell right now if I perished at this moment, and I don't like that one bit. Wanting to please The Lord, and actually pleasing Him, are two very different things.
I have a few friends who are atheists. What I have learned about them, in particular, is that they're full of seething anger and hatred towards Christianity. Maybe some of you on the board are agnostic or atheists that take a more pragmatic or passive approach to religious views... but the atheists I know personally are outwardly and loudly anti-Christianity, and actually more open to beliefs of Satanism than the Gospel. They claim nonbelief of GOD or Satan, but fervently push the dogmatic views of Satanism.
I've found I can have productive religious discourse much easier with agnostics than I can with self-described "atheists".
Posted on 11/7/21 at 5:00 pm to Zarkinletch416
Thanks all for your responses. I had some issues come up today that I had to handle, so I couldn't follow along real time.
I will not refute every passage given in support of reform theology or Calvinism or TULIP or predestination. I will leave that up to those who are so inclined to do so themselves.
I will simply say that this all predates Calvin and can be traced back to St Augustine's interpretation of the fall. Suffice it to say all this is at odds with the beliefs of early Christians who did not believe as Calvin and did believe that Jesus Christ died for all, not just a certain elect few.
I stand by my assertion that Calvinism and Reform Theology is the spawn of Satan and responsible for so many lost. It makes "praying to Mary" or revering a Pope look like child's play in comparison.
"God's sovereignty" is no justification for tyranny. But, thankfully, our God is a just and loving God, who wishes that all would be saved, and strives for the same.
Any theology that forces people to accept inconsistencies and tortured logic is bad theology. Any theology that cannot be swallowed except by cold hearts who relish random blessings while coldly accepting the condemnation of people like themselves in all things, except in regards to their final terrible fate, is destructive theology.
"God's sovereignty" is not at issue. But if we find ourselves justifying a cruel characature of God that we believe in, then best we reject that false God and find the loving one instead.
I will not refute every passage given in support of reform theology or Calvinism or TULIP or predestination. I will leave that up to those who are so inclined to do so themselves.
I will simply say that this all predates Calvin and can be traced back to St Augustine's interpretation of the fall. Suffice it to say all this is at odds with the beliefs of early Christians who did not believe as Calvin and did believe that Jesus Christ died for all, not just a certain elect few.
I stand by my assertion that Calvinism and Reform Theology is the spawn of Satan and responsible for so many lost. It makes "praying to Mary" or revering a Pope look like child's play in comparison.
"God's sovereignty" is no justification for tyranny. But, thankfully, our God is a just and loving God, who wishes that all would be saved, and strives for the same.
Any theology that forces people to accept inconsistencies and tortured logic is bad theology. Any theology that cannot be swallowed except by cold hearts who relish random blessings while coldly accepting the condemnation of people like themselves in all things, except in regards to their final terrible fate, is destructive theology.
"God's sovereignty" is not at issue. But if we find ourselves justifying a cruel characature of God that we believe in, then best we reject that false God and find the loving one instead.
This post was edited on 11/7/21 at 5:06 pm
Posted on 11/7/21 at 5:04 pm to TigerAxeOK
quote:
Being non-denominational in my Christian faith has been a blessing.
quote:Seems incongruent. There are plenty of non denominational Churches around. Sounds like you need to sit down with a Pastor and help you sort through your issues.
I would probably go to hell right now if I perished at this moment, and I don't like that one bit.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 5:16 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
But if we find ourselves justifying a cruel characature of God
That sounds reasonable, BUT who defines what’s ‘cruel’? Who defies what’s ‘good’? Certainly not our emotions.
This is always where non believers stumble. They look at a situation and believe, for some reason that they themselves are more fair, compassionate or merciful than God. After all, God can’t allow something they deem ‘bad’. A common theme I hear is that God can’t chose His friends, that wouldn’t be fair. All the while, the person has no issues with choosing their friends. It’s kinda like putting God in a box because the creature can’t see, or grasp Even if they could see, the bigger picture.
This post was edited on 11/7/21 at 5:18 pm
Posted on 11/7/21 at 5:49 pm to Padme
If God is like the stuck up sorority chick picking popular friends and shunning the awkward, then I'll pass.
We all have an innate knowledge of right and wrong. All people. All cultures. Surprisingly consistent.
See C.S. Lewis for a fuller explanation.
We all have an innate knowledge of right and wrong. All people. All cultures. Surprisingly consistent.
See C.S. Lewis for a fuller explanation.
Posted on 11/7/21 at 5:54 pm to RiverCityTider
So in your own words God needs to act like you need him to act, so in essence he’s your lower power
Posted on 11/7/21 at 6:01 pm to Padme
We're supposed to love God right?
I get your drift but your off base.
Are not God's attributes described in the Bible?
I get your drift but your off base.
Are not God's attributes described in the Bible?
Posted on 11/7/21 at 6:05 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:You already have. That is painfully obvious.
then I'll pass.
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