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re: The Critical Theory Thread (proposed)
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:15 am to crazy4lsu
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:15 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
as I have to still finish this semester of med school
Best of luck, brother. Never would have guessed that's what you were doing. I'd offer to buy you a beer the next time LSU plays in Tuscaloosa, but I don't particularly appreciate feeling stupid.
1
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:16 am to nugget
quote:
It was already mentioned in this thread, dickhead
i'm joking
watch episodes with Gad Sad and Peter Boghossian
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:16 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
I've been begging people to actually read these theorists to counteract some of the insane arguments I see,
Do you really believe they are listening to counter-arguments?
quote:
In contemporary usage, the term Cultural Marxism refers to a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory which claims that the Frankfurt School is part of an ongoing academic and intellectual effort to undermine and destroy Western culture and values.[49] According to the conspiracy theory, which emerged in the late 1990s, the Frankfurt School and other Marxist theorists were part of a conspiracy to attack Western society by undermining traditionalist conservatism and Christianity using the 1960s counterculture, multiculturalism, progressive politics and political correctness.[50][51][52]
Also, do you agree with this, from the Wikipedia entry for The Frankfurt School? Is it just a conspiracy theory?
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:16 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Okay I can start compiling a list. It will take some time too, as I have to still finish this semester of med school, which ends in July. I can have a decent reading list by the middle of July, though I can probably provide some readings weekly in the interim.
The question of how the French philosophers in particular were used to make critiques of objectivity by American scholars is actually a great question too, and I can see if I can't find works which either critique or exemplify that too.
Thanks will add to OP with any introduction you want to feed us when you're able.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:18 am to HempHead
I don't know why I went into it either. I worked at a hospital for a while, and thought medicine seemed like worthwhile work. Med school is hellish though.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:19 am to Scruffy
quote:Here's a possible alternative system
I have no idea which system, or combination of systems, would be better, but I’m starting to doubt that Democracy is the way to go.
Some excerpts from the abstract on page 1:
quote:More (much more - old Moldbug is nothing if not wordy) at the link above.
The basic idea of Patchwork is that, as the crappy governments we inherited from history are smashed, they should be replaced by a global spiderweb of tens, even hundreds, of thousands of sovereign and independent mini-countries, each governed by its own joint-stock corporation without regard to the residents’ opinions. If residents don’t like their government, they can and should move. The design is all “exit,” no “voice.”
The essential inspiration for Patchwork is the observation that the periods in which human civilization has flowered are the periods in which it has been most politically divided. Ancient Greece, medieval Italy, Europe until 1914, China in the Spring and Autumn Period, and so on. Burckhardt once observed that Europe was safe so long as she was not unified, and now that she is we can see exactly what he meant.
So we can think of Patchwork as a new operating system for the world. Of course, it does not have to be installed across the entire world, although it is certainly designed to scale. But, it is easier and much more prudent to start small. Innovations in sovereignty are dangerous.
A patchwork—please feel free to drop the capital—is any network consisting of a large number of small but independent states. To be precise, each state’s real estate is its patch; the sovereign corporate owner, i.e., government, of the patch is its realm. At least initially, each realm holds one and only one patch. In practice this may change with time, but the realm–patch structure is at least designed to be stable.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:20 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
. Med school is hellish though.
wait till residency
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:22 am to FearlessFreep
Until I read Moldbug at the end, I was going to say that sounds exactly like his theories.
Neoreaction is a lot like anarcho-capitalism with just a bit more realism, IMO.
Neoreaction is a lot like anarcho-capitalism with just a bit more realism, IMO.
This post was edited on 6/8/20 at 10:23 am
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:22 am to uway
quote:
Do you really believe they are listening to counter-arguments?
To be clear, I was referring to countering insane leftist arguments with source texts. Whether those argument makers are listening is another question. I think this is a fine method of refutation to refer to the source text, but in order to be persuasive, you need a model of argumentation like the Rogerian model, so that you agree upon the reality that you are arguing.
That requires another aspect of discussion, which is how media shapes our perceptions. Two reasonable people can have entirely different worldviews based on media alone, and not their tactile experiences, which is utterly unique in human experience, in my estimation. How to get around that is another conundrum.
quote:
Also, do you agree with this, from the Wikipedia entry for The Frankfurt School? Is it just a conspiracy theory?
I do not, because it gives an awful lot of power to The Frankfurt School, power which I do not see within academia itself. LSU's philosophy department in the 00's was unique, because it had both Anglo-American (so called Analytic) and Continental philosophers. Most departments in the US are strictly Anglo-American, with Continental work relegated to Comparative Literature or Literary Theory programs, which are not that big. I had to specifically seek out the Frankfurt School philosophers. And while some works are genuinely influential, like Benjamin's The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction, others are not. Like no leftist has ever quoted me Horkheimer, though Adorno is fairly popular.
This post was edited on 6/8/20 at 10:27 am
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:23 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
It's hard for me to even name people who used this framework to criticize objective truth
Sophistry is rather rampant in English departments nowadays. Janet Atwill and her work on techne in the field of rhetoric is a good place to look. I agree that much of this intellectual work is coopted by those who use it for personal agendas. However, the ivory tower is a political activism hotbed. Using these concepts to advance a cause shouldn't be a surprise.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:26 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
To be clear, I was referring to countering insane leftist arguments with source texts. Whether those argument makers are listening is another question. I think this is a fine method of refutation to refer to the source text, but in order to be persuasive,
the problem is kind of like our previous exchange
there were concepts derived from CT that have been used in a way that (apparently, since i haven't read the stuff and believe you) isn't based in the primary works. the problem is that, at this point, it's an evolved argument with its own rhetorical genealogy and those primary works are largely irrelevant to the modern conversation.
hell, it's likely if you did rely on primary works, the evolved rhetoric would be used against you to call you an x-ist.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:33 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the problem is kind of like our previous exchange
there were concepts derived from CT that have been used in a way that (apparently, since i haven't read the stuff and believe you) isn't based in the primary works. the problem is that, at this point, it's an evolved argument with its own rhetorical genealogy and those primary works are largely irrelevant to the modern conversation.
It does have its own genealogy, but I wish I had a better grasp on the history of it. I'm sure I've read people who were involved in it, but the people who we read in classes were the primary sources. I know a couple departments who are the same with regards to primary documents. I honestly have to investigate it.
quote:
hell, it's likely if you did rely on primary works, the evolved rhetoric would be used against you to call you an x-ist.
Maybe? Ultimately, I've avoided these designations because I'm written off as overly pedantic (which I absolutely am) and only offer critiques, with nothing to replace that work.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:37 am to StringedInstruments
quote:
Sophistry is rather rampant in English departments nowadays.
I can only speak from my experience, and from what friends tell me, but it depends. The desire for tenure and the subsequent justification of "publish or perish" has led to a lot of sloppy work.
quote:
Janet Atwill and her work on techne in the field of rhetoric is a good place to look.
I will check her out.
This post was edited on 6/8/20 at 10:45 am
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:42 am to uway
quote:Nope. What is wanted is not dialogue. What is wanted is power. Philosophy is a fluid tool, like a useful idiot; a means to an end. Disposable when no longer useful. Power is the object of desire. Learn more from The Game of Thrones.
Do you really believe they are listening to counter-arguments?
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:44 am to Pettifogger
quote:
Thanks will add to OP with any introduction you want to feed us when you're able.
I'll try to find a broad overview, if I can. I'm going to bookmark the thread and bump it when I have something.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:46 am to FearlessFreep
I happen to believe there are actual facts.
1+1=2.
The sun rises in the east and sets in the West.
The Earth circles there sun.
There are lots of facts. But as we are seeing, facts can be discounted or called racist and so you end up with...
Which is where we are right now. There funny thing is the Democrats are saying trump is the government from the book 1984.
But whenever the Dems blame something on trump, it's always them.
And this quote perfectly explains the place we are. I hope the silent majority really is a majority and really is silent.
Anyways, as far as this goes...
While others sounds good, you are naturally going to have the mini countries coalesce together because the biggest mini country will be the strangest country and then you will have that country telling others what to do.
I don't know.
Perhaps democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others.
1+1=2.
The sun rises in the east and sets in the West.
The Earth circles there sun.
There are lots of facts. But as we are seeing, facts can be discounted or called racist and so you end up with...
quote:
alsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.
Which is where we are right now. There funny thing is the Democrats are saying trump is the government from the book 1984.
But whenever the Dems blame something on trump, it's always them.
And this quote perfectly explains the place we are. I hope the silent majority really is a majority and really is silent.
Anyways, as far as this goes...
quote:
The basic idea of Patchwork is that, as the crappy governments we inherited from history are smashed, they should be replaced by a global spiderweb of tens, even hundreds, of thousands of sovereign and independent mini-countries, each governed by its own joint-stock corporation without regard to the residents’ opinions. If residents don’t like their government, they can and should move. The design is all “exit,” no “voice.”
While others sounds good, you are naturally going to have the mini countries coalesce together because the biggest mini country will be the strangest country and then you will have that country telling others what to do.
I don't know.
Perhaps democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:48 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Maybe? Ultimately, I've avoided these designations because I'm written off as overly pedantic (which I absolutely am) and only offer critiques, with nothing to replace that work.
well i may not have been clear but i'm not really arguing with you as much as telling you how this would all play out
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:00 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
well i may not have been clear but i'm not really arguing with you as much as telling you how this would all play out
Haha sorry if I misinterpreted you.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 7:57 pm to Scruffy
We don't live in a democracy. The United States has never been a democracy. The United States is a constitutional republic. The only thing Democratic about it is that we elect our leaders at certain levels and branches of government through a loosely democratic process but the people are not directly involved in the day-to-day matters of government as in a democracy. Especially at the federal level.
The people's power, at the federal level, comes through the Democratic election of members of the House of Representatives and vicariously through the states for the head of the executive branch. All other members in the executive branch are appointed as are the Judiciary and, at one time and should be again, the Senate.
The federal government was meant to be the government for the states. A unifying administrative bureaucracy. The states were meant to be the government for the people
The further We've Come away from this original design, the greater the federal government's power has grown creating a monopoly on power. The states have been relegated to paupers begging for handouts.
The hard reset is going to require a repeal of the 17th Amendment and the federal income tax
The people's power, at the federal level, comes through the Democratic election of members of the House of Representatives and vicariously through the states for the head of the executive branch. All other members in the executive branch are appointed as are the Judiciary and, at one time and should be again, the Senate.
The federal government was meant to be the government for the states. A unifying administrative bureaucracy. The states were meant to be the government for the people
The further We've Come away from this original design, the greater the federal government's power has grown creating a monopoly on power. The states have been relegated to paupers begging for handouts.
The hard reset is going to require a repeal of the 17th Amendment and the federal income tax
This post was edited on 6/8/20 at 8:04 pm
Posted on 6/8/20 at 8:57 pm to HempHead
quote:
I understand the destruction through deconstruction, the question is: what is it supposed to be replaced by?
That's the trap, postmodernism exists only in the present to destroy the past.
Marxists have co-opted many of this generation of true believers. This board will tell you this is all a Marxist plot, but I see it in reverse - empty-headed cultists latching on to the first group that will take them in and give them purpose, and obviously Marxists have a major interest in seeing certain traditional pillars destroyed to make room for The State.
Culturally, we were headed towards an answer in the 90s, as postmodern savant David Foster Wallace openly called for a rejection of cynicism and the emergence of a New Sincerity. Then he killed himself and was summarily cancelled by the same postmodernists by whom he was beloved.
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