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re: The bible doesn't forbid homosexuality - the left

Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:32 am to
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46826 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:32 am to
quote:

By whether it is consistent with and advances the best interests of the society in which it is implemented.
Who defines what is in the best interest of a society, and why is that the standard that should be used? There have been societies that have agreed that sex slavery, chattel slavery, and genocide were all things that were in their own best interest.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:36 am to
quote:

What makes that objectively good?
who said anything about “objective good?“

Obviously, the members of any given society would decide what advances the interests of their society.
This post was edited on 12/11/22 at 12:00 pm
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:37 am to
quote:

There have been societies that have agreed that sex slavery, chattel slavery, and genocide were all things that were in their own best interest.
Absolutely.

By our measure, those would be “immoral“ societies. By their own measure, they would not.
Posted by Swamp Angel
West Georgia Chicken Farm Territory
Member since Jul 2004
10163 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:41 am to
quote:

By whether it is consistent with and advances the best interests of the society in which it is implemented.


I'll toss this out there as an honest question -
What determines whether morals should benefit a society over the individual? How does this become enforced? If society forces an individual to act against that individual's personal best interests, doesn't that become a case of "might makes right," thus losing any argument from a morally superior vantage?
This post was edited on 12/11/22 at 11:43 am
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:42 am to
Under our moral code, yes.

Under their moral code, no.

It’s just one example, look at a Confucian culture. The good of the family overrides the good of the individual, in that culture. They consider that to be perfectly moral. In fact, they consider it to be a virtue.
This post was edited on 12/11/22 at 11:43 am
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46826 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:45 am to
quote:

Absolutely.

By our measure, those would be “immoral“ societies. By their own measure, they would not.
How do you identify an outstanding moral code that should be used if literally any action can be seen as morally good depending on what a society wants at any given time?

This is the fundamental flaw of moral relativism: it removes the possibility of objective moral reasoning and reduces morality to mere preference.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:56 am to
quote:

How do you identify an outstanding moral code that should be used if literally any action can be seen as morally good depending on what a society wants at any given time? This is the fundamental flaw of moral relativism: it removes the possibility of objective moral reasoning and reduces morality to mere preference.
You see a bug. I see a feature.
This post was edited on 12/11/22 at 1:18 pm
Posted by Esquire
Chiraq
Member since Apr 2014
14794 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 11:58 am to
quote:

This is the fundamental flaw of moral relativism: it removes the possibility of objective moral reasoning and reduces morality to mere preference.


So should we go back to enslaving people because God said it’s okay?
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46826 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:05 pm to
quote:

So should we go back to enslaving people because God said it’s okay?
In a morally relativistic world, why would that be wrong?

But to answer your question, God tolerated a lot of bad things in patience towards a fallen and sinful people. Slavery is not a positive good, nor is it commanded by God generally, therefore there is no reason to support it for our society and many reasons to reject it.
Posted by Esquire
Chiraq
Member since Apr 2014
14794 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:12 pm to
quote:

But to answer your question, God tolerated a lot of bad things in patience towards a fallen and sinful people. Slavery is not a positive good, nor is it commanded by God generally


Doesn’t sound very objective to me
Posted by CelticDog
Member since Apr 2015
42867 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:13 pm to
quote:

the members of any given society would decide what advances the interests of their society.




so Red China abandons long view 1 child policy.

Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:16 pm to
quote:

Doesn’t sound very objective to me
"Objectively-defined morality," with totally subjective enforcement.

vs.

"Relatively-defined morality," with totally objective enforcement.

Does random or consistent enforcement provide the most-predictable and reliable results?
This post was edited on 12/11/22 at 1:32 pm
Posted by International_Aggie
Member since Oct 2012
2037 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:19 pm to
quote:

quote:In regards to Jesus, it’s an argument from silence. Not true, he addresses it in Matthew 15/Mark 7.


I guess I should clarify. The left attempts to make an argument from silence. I did state that Jesus did speak on human sexuality.
Posted by RogerTheShrubber
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
298923 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:20 pm to
quote:

You see a bug. I see a feature.


Go be gay Hank. Why do you have to convince these backwater rubes that you're always right?


Just go be gay, they don't have to agree with you.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46826 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:38 pm to
quote:

Doesn’t sound very objective to me
It’s because you don’t understand biblical and theological principles about God, man, sin, and righteousness.

Slavery isn’t inherently evil/immoral depending on what it looks like and what it is used for. For instance, a government imprisoning a law-breaker is a form of just slavery, but the government has vested authority to punish wickedness like that. A private citizen kidnapping for the purpose of chattel slavery is an example of sin that should not be tolerated, and that wasn’t even tolerated in ancient Israel.

God’s character is the basis for objective moral reasoning and ultimately the basis for our human rights as image-bearers of God. God’s character doesn’t change, and therefore the foundations of moral reasoning do not change.
Posted by Esquire
Chiraq
Member since Apr 2014
14794 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:40 pm to
quote:

God’s character doesn’t change, and therefore the foundations of moral reasoning do not change.


Except Old Testament God and New Testament God do not have the same character.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:52 pm to
nm
This post was edited on 12/11/22 at 12:53 pm
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46826 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 12:54 pm to
quote:

Except Old Testament God and New Testament God do not have the same character.
Yes, they do. God is still a God of judgment of sin. That's what Jesus' purpose was: to be sent to die in judgment for the sin of mankind.
Posted by Flats
Member since Jul 2019
28070 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 1:00 pm to
quote:

Obviously, the members of any given society would decide what advances the interests of their society.


You're discussing pragmatism, not morality as understood by most people. Pragmatism can get you to a goal; it does not make a judgement on whether the goal is worthy or not. Poison showers for Jews were pragmatic.
This post was edited on 12/11/22 at 1:01 pm
Posted by PrattvilleTiger
Montgomery, AL
Member since May 2020
2776 posts
Posted on 12/11/22 at 1:20 pm to
In the Bible, (heterosexual) sex outside of marriage and adultery are mentioned A LOT more than homosexuality. I heard a gay person say once "unless you were a virgin on your wedding night, you've got no right to judge or condemn me." I keep my mouth shut on the subject.
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