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re: The Atlantic really mad at Twitter. They have no answer for #DiedSuddenly.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 11:12 am to tide06
Posted on 1/25/23 at 11:12 am to tide06
quote:
You have no clinical data to support that claim. Zero.
Utterly wrong.
I see that repeated on a daily basis, and have since 2021. I haven't seen one case in a full patient census of vaccine injury. I'm begging you to think what you are saying through, because it is clear you aren't familiar with pathology.
quote:
And Ill respond yet again. Myocarditis is through the roof. You claim its covid related but you simply don't know because you can't clinically separate the cause of injury from vaccine, disease or other factors.
Again, do you know how we can separate the source of a particular injury pattern? Because there are several types of myocarditis, and yet you think we can't separate the causes. My god.
quote:
All anyone is asking for is the data to separate fact from fiction and avoid injuring millions of additional human beings whatever the cause and establishing clear risk profile for the vaccines once and for all.
And when it is proven that the risk of myocarditis and other serious sequalae from infection is far greater than any risks associated with the vaccine, what will you do?
0
Posted on 1/25/23 at 11:12 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
The pandemic isn't over by any measure.
What are your speculations on why that is? And do you have any theories on what is driving the convergent evolution of this virus?
Posted on 1/25/23 at 11:15 am to idsrdum
quote:
Great suggestion but who would want to fund that? Certainly not any entity who has been pushing vaccination on the entire population.
The FDA mandates that exact trial data before approving new therapies with the company submitting the therapy responsible for trial costs.
The only exception in the last 50 years being the mRNA vaccines.
This post was edited on 1/25/23 at 11:16 am
Posted on 1/25/23 at 11:20 am to idsrdum
quote:
What are your speculations on why that is? And do you have any theories on what is driving the convergent evolution of this virus?
A few reasons. First there is no interest in transmission control strategies. The best way would be to use specific filtration techniques, as my speculation is that COVID has a facet to its transmission which health organizations and governments do not want to admit. We really haven't pursued that. Secondly, there is strong evidence of prolonged immune system dysfunction after COVID infection, which complicates the long-term sequalae significantly. Aside from that, epitope-biased antibody response worldwide would have been the best initial way of limiting the genomic variation of the virus. We can hope that eventually some antigenic stability develops in specific strains, but the likelihood is that unless a very good attenuated vaccine develops that covers several strains, we will just have to live with the cyclical virulence of the pathogen, which I guess people are okay with. The CFR of COVID is above 0.1% in pretty much every country last I checked, which is the usual standard for treating a pathogen as a pandemic. That is going to mean complete decimation of certain age-cohorts for no real reason other than they got old. It's been a retarded disease control strategy from the beginning, and no one really seems to care.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 11:26 am to idsrdum
quote:
Have you seen this paper?
No that is the first paper I've seen which has actually produced a characteristic injury pattern. But the discussion section people should read closely, because there is more evidence that COVID operates as an immune system disorder in addition to a virus that is transmitted by respiratory means. The discussion is very illuminating, especially the suggestion that possible intravascular vaccine injection may be contributive.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 11:39 am to Penrod
quote:
The reason you assign this problem to the vaccines, and lefties assign it to covid, is because you are both blinded by partisan doctrine.
Please, educate us, since you obviously know the answer.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 11:49 am to idsrdum
quote:
Have you seen this paper?
LINK
Nothing you provide this guy is going to convince him because he already has his mind made up.
If he didn't he'd be asking the same questions of the FDA that the people he's debating are.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:02 pm to tide06
quote:
Nothing you provide this guy is going to convince him because he already has his mind made up.
You've already said stupid things which make it clear you don't understand pathology. I'm open to new evidence as it comes. If you don't believe that I haven't seen a presentation of vaccine injury, I don't know what to tell you. And when I ask for a presentation, I get some hand-waving and 'muh we can't tell injury patterns between sources of insult,' which is among the dumbest things I've ever heard. That you think vaccination is possibly worse than COVID infection tells me you don't have the ability to discern fiction from reality very well. I hope that improves for you.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:18 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
You've already said stupid things which make it clear you don't understand pathology.
You've said laughable things that make it clear that you don't understand drug development, the drug review process or the need to make claims based on objective data review.
Im not a pathologist and don't claim to be one. I do however have extensive experience in everything that I listed above. If you have familiarity with that process you will know that the FDA has skipped its usual review process, made false claims that it could not substantiate given the information it had on hand at the time and that patients made choices under duress based on that flawed guidance.
As a result of that, skepticism as to their other subsequent claims isn't unfounded.
Asking for long term outcome data between vaccinated and unvaccinated patient subsets given concerning overall trends in mortality and cardiac increases shouldn't be a controversial request. It would already exist if the therapies hadn't been rushed through initially and could be evaluated on a patient by patient basis with their HCP as to whether it makes sense for the individual.
It should be one that anyone pursuing the best outcomes for US citizens should agree on and the fact that it hasn't occurred is only further cause for skepticism as to why that consensus hasn't occurred.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:26 pm to tide06
quote:
Im not a pathologist and don't claim to be one.
Which is why you shouldn't really talk about pathology.
quote:
I do however have extensive experience in everything that I listed above. If you have familiarity with that process you will know that the FDA has skipped its usual review process, made false claims that it could not substantiate given the information it had on hand at the time and that patients made choices under duress based on that flawed guidance.
Cool.
quote:
Asking for long term outcome data between vaccinated and unvaccinated patient subsets given concerning overall trends in mortality and cardiac increases shouldn't be a controversial request. It would already exist if the therapies hadn't been rushed through initially and could be evaluated on a patient by patient basis with their HCP as to whether it makes sense for the individual.
Sure
quote:
It should be one that anyone pursuing the best outcomes for US citizens should agree on and the fact that it hasn't occurred is only further cause for skepticism as to why that consensus hasn't occurred.
But if you suggest that things don't correlate clinically, which you did, and is supported by the study I posted, that isn't my fault. You also said you can't 'clinically separate the cause of injury from the vaccine' which I'm telling you is so deeply idiotic I can't believe you typed that out. For reference, the suggestion is that vaccine injury is the only type of insult that doesn't correlate to findings at the cellular level, which is so functionally idiotic I don't know what to tell you.
And there is no response to the CFR of countries which are all above what we consider the pandemic threshold, all of which have varying disease control strategies, including vaccination strategies. That suggests its own conclusion, doesn't it?
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:32 pm to crazy4lsu
I think it would be helpful to the discussion if you gave a layman's-level explanation for how physician might distinguish vaccine injury from disease injury.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:36 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Which is why you shouldn't really talk about pathology.
Because the expert pathologists have been knocking it out of the fricking park, amirite?
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:49 pm to TigerDoc
Lol, I can barely do laymen's discussion.
Vaccine injury would generally have cellular infiltrate and patterns of injury, either fibrosis, immune-complex mediated deposition, or protein deposition, depending on the context. You might see long-term fibrosis in myocardial cells injured in vaccine-associated myocarditis. If we suspect vaccine injury, we can look for CTLA-4, PD-1 and PD-1 ligand and other immune checkpoint inhibitors if we want to make a connection between vaccine injury and possibly hypersensitivity injury more broadly. Eosinophilic myocarditis would see eosinophilic infiltration, and suggest a parasitic cause, while the clinical context would aid a diagnosis of hypersensitivity myocarditis, as you'd have characteristic lab markets with ECG changes.
Between a viral or more broadly, a pathogen associated cause without eosinophilia, and a vaccine cause, you'd generally find evidence of actual infection along with with immune-mediated cellular infiltration (mostly lymphocytic). In the absence of that, along with a temporal relationship, you could isolate the vaccine-associated cellular injury very easily. You can further differentiate exogenous causes with autoimmune causes, because autoimmune causes have characteristic patterns of injury in several tissues, though there is a theoretical possibility of vaccine-associated injury showing deposition in multiple, distinct organ system. I am not aware of a vaccine-associated injury that has been linked to multiple organ system tissue deposition or cellular injury, as the case literature generally finds injury correlates to symptomatology.
In the above case of 5 autopsies associated with vaccine-injury, you saw myocardial lymphocytic associated with CD3 cell markers, which suggests immune-mediated cause, but with no other associated disease that could explain the injury pattern. But you can make distinctions at the cellular level very easily, because the patterns of cellular injury in pathology are characteristic.
Vaccine injury would generally have cellular infiltrate and patterns of injury, either fibrosis, immune-complex mediated deposition, or protein deposition, depending on the context. You might see long-term fibrosis in myocardial cells injured in vaccine-associated myocarditis. If we suspect vaccine injury, we can look for CTLA-4, PD-1 and PD-1 ligand and other immune checkpoint inhibitors if we want to make a connection between vaccine injury and possibly hypersensitivity injury more broadly. Eosinophilic myocarditis would see eosinophilic infiltration, and suggest a parasitic cause, while the clinical context would aid a diagnosis of hypersensitivity myocarditis, as you'd have characteristic lab markets with ECG changes.
Between a viral or more broadly, a pathogen associated cause without eosinophilia, and a vaccine cause, you'd generally find evidence of actual infection along with with immune-mediated cellular infiltration (mostly lymphocytic). In the absence of that, along with a temporal relationship, you could isolate the vaccine-associated cellular injury very easily. You can further differentiate exogenous causes with autoimmune causes, because autoimmune causes have characteristic patterns of injury in several tissues, though there is a theoretical possibility of vaccine-associated injury showing deposition in multiple, distinct organ system. I am not aware of a vaccine-associated injury that has been linked to multiple organ system tissue deposition or cellular injury, as the case literature generally finds injury correlates to symptomatology.
In the above case of 5 autopsies associated with vaccine-injury, you saw myocardial lymphocytic associated with CD3 cell markers, which suggests immune-mediated cause, but with no other associated disease that could explain the injury pattern. But you can make distinctions at the cellular level very easily, because the patterns of cellular injury in pathology are characteristic.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:56 pm to Flats
quote:
Because the expert pathologists have been knocking it out of the fricking park, amirite?
Don't you think it is curious that Malone, who taught pathology, has not produced any histopathology?
There are methods by which physicians make arguments, and nearly all of them start with histopathology. The logos of convincing physicians has to start with the pathology, but for the most part, the anti-vaccine literature has avoided that, and instead focused on much larger claims, such as the claim that the mRNA vaccine has shown the ability to integrate with the human genome, which wasn't what the original study claimed, nor is it a feature that is limited to the vaccine.
When I say that these people are making bad arguments, I'm saying that because they are suggesting far more than they can given the evidence they present. You can make much smaller claims and build a body of literature. Or you could collate and organize case reports, as was the case with Widukind Lenz and Thalidomide, but all of that requires serious, extremely tedious and rather boring work, and none of it involves moaning about being cancelled or whatever.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:57 pm to GumboPot
I just found out that my friend’s young stepson died suddenly of cardiac arrest.
He was from here but was abroad competing in Muay Thai.
He was from here but was abroad competing in Muay Thai.
This post was edited on 1/25/23 at 1:29 pm
Posted on 1/25/23 at 12:58 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Which is why you shouldn't really talk about pathology.
When the pathologists and public health experts go back to following their own rules and best practices I would love to.
quote:
You also said you can't 'clinically separate the cause of injury from the vaccine'
My statement is that we don't know whether increased incidence of myocarditis among the US population is related to vaccine injury or covid exposure but some published data exists showing that there are commonalities amongst the vaccinated with relation to the myocarditis they are experiencing as opposed to other forms:
"Compared with other causes of myocarditis, patients with vaccine-associated myocarditis had a higher left ventricular ejection fraction and less extensive LGE, even after controlling for age, sex, and time from symptom onset to MRI."
Radiology - Mycocardial Injury Pattern at MRI in COVID Patients
Other publications have found links between sudden death post vaccination and myocarditis at rates that would trigger black box warning letters for other drugs.
Autopsy Based Changes Post Vaccination
There is a myriad of other data points and small publications suggesting further review is required, but the FDA and CDC are not pushing for larger trials or publishing warnings that would be automatically triggered for other drugs.
I'm not stating the vaccine is causing the injuries. I'm stating we need to know what is immediately and the only two plausible explanations are "long covid" and the vaccine given the time frame involved.
Posted on 1/25/23 at 1:09 pm to crazy4lsu
That's really good, actually. Your earlier posts indicate a great deal of confidence of at being able to make those distinctions.
A lot of skeptics are going to say something like "even if I concede those are valid ways of distinguishing, why should I feel confident that medical authorities are looking to make the distinctions in relevant cases?"
Any ways to increase public confidence that the right kinds of assessments are being made in the right cases?
A lot of skeptics are going to say something like "even if I concede those are valid ways of distinguishing, why should I feel confident that medical authorities are looking to make the distinctions in relevant cases?"
Any ways to increase public confidence that the right kinds of assessments are being made in the right cases?
This post was edited on 1/25/23 at 1:17 pm
Posted on 1/25/23 at 1:15 pm to tide06
quote:
"Compared with other causes of myocarditis, patients with vaccine-associated myocarditis had a higher left ventricular ejection fraction and less extensive LGE, even after controlling for age, sex, and time from symptom onset to MRI."
Uh, do you know what this means? Because I don't think this is implying what you think it is.
quote:
My statement is that we don't know whether increased incidence of myocarditis among the US population is related to vaccine injury or covid exposure
Again, there is a meta-analysis I already posted in this thread which doesn't support this assertion.
quote:
I'm not stating the vaccine is causing the injuries. I'm stating we need to know what is immediately and the only two plausible explanations are "long covid" and the vaccine given the time frame involved.
Again, there is far more evidence of long COVID being associated with infection-associated immune-dysregulation, where the body of evidence includes prolonged dendritic cell dysfunction and the wide quality of infection between family members, which I've seen with my own eyes in several instances, suggests mediation along HLA serotypes.
I could collect all the evidence that shows the severe immune sequalae of post-infection individuals, but what would that do, given that you are convinced of something that doesn't exist, but has to be studied for no real clinical benefit other than to satisfy the minds of some of the dumbest people I've ever encountered? From the words of patients themselves, how many do you think point to infection as the beginning of their sundry problems versus vaccination?
Posted on 1/25/23 at 1:22 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
crazy4lsu
how do you explain unvaxxed purebloods like me never getting covid? I never tested positive for covid, never got sick and not once did I experience any of the symptoms.
Is my immune system on par with Kryptonian like physiognomy?
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