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Started By
Message
re: Teacher Pay Raises
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:27 am to LSUFanHouston
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:27 am to LSUFanHouston
quote:
But the high-talent kids can get just as good an education, and likely better, at a magnet school compared to some of the lower to average NOLA area Catholic school.
Truth! Especially in grade schools.
But there is that moral thing.
Yes great kids can and do go to magnet schools, and low lives can and do go to Catholic schools. But the school culture as a whole is better where God CAN and is mentioned.
This post was edited on 10/28/19 at 11:30 am
2
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:28 am to cahoots
Bottom line. Public schools fail for the following reasons.
1. Not all fail. In fact, many are good. Alas, this is entirely a function of the students in the schools. EVERYTHING flows from that.
2. Teachers union(and cahoots apparently), think that the economics of schools is somehow bubbled away from the economics of the world around them.
3. Politics. Too many people want to use the schools to substitute for shitty parents, overcome parents whose politics they don't like, or, push social agendas. All take time away from actual education.
Cahoots is probably correct that political reality prevents solving 1-3........but, that just means it's not gonna get solved. Unicorns and rainbows don't really exist.
1. Not all fail. In fact, many are good. Alas, this is entirely a function of the students in the schools. EVERYTHING flows from that.
2. Teachers union(and cahoots apparently), think that the economics of schools is somehow bubbled away from the economics of the world around them.
3. Politics. Too many people want to use the schools to substitute for shitty parents, overcome parents whose politics they don't like, or, push social agendas. All take time away from actual education.
Cahoots is probably correct that political reality prevents solving 1-3........but, that just means it's not gonna get solved. Unicorns and rainbows don't really exist.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:30 am to cahoots
quote:
Do you think it's a coincidence that the best public school system in Louisiana pays near the top and offers a low cost of living?
Yes actually, it is.
If you look nationwide, there is pretty much zero correlation between teacher pay, per student spending, and results.
In the Tidewater, VA area, you have Norfolk, Va Beach, Hampton City, Poquosson Newport News and other districts.
Teachers fight over the right to teach in the best district...........which pays the least. Poquosson. Meanwhile, Hampton City, which pays the highest, can't keep teachers.
It's ALL about who is IN the schools. THAT is the economics at play.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:30 am to ShortyRob
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/24/20 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:30 am to cahoots
quote:
I'm making a distinction between analyzing all of a student's work vs. a few standardized tests. Very different
My kids seem to have close to 50 or more "graded activities" during a 9 week period. Some of it is 100 or zero (did you do your homework), some if it is short quizzes that make up a small percentage of the report card grade, some of it is tests, some projects, etc.
Over the course of the year, that's 200 (or more) data points that can be carved up and analyzed.
Basing all of this on just a few standardized tests doesn't work.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:36 am to cahoots
quote:
So if you went into the best school districts in the country, most of which pay above the national average, and lowered the pay to the national average, no affect?
Correct. Because the best school districts have very little to do with anything more than who goes to the schools and who is sending them there. It's not complicated.
quote:Yeah. You can. And then, you grossly overpay them..........which comes out of normal taxpayer pockets.
I know how economics work. I also know how politics work. You have to pay some art teachers more just so they don't bitch about the chemistry teacher's check. Sorry.
And make no mistake. If you're paying fricking art teachers what it takes to hire an advanced Calculus teacher.............you know who ELSE will notice?
The taxpayer with an actual fricking skill making 60% of what Art teachers are making.
ECONOMICS my friend.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:37 am to Gaspergou202
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/24/20 at 12:51 pm
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:40 am to Eurocat
quote:
It will punish the teachers in the worst/poorest areas, not the worst teachers.
Its not the same teaching the kids of doctors vs the kids of junkies and prisoners.
This. My wife is a special needs teacher in a very rural, mainly black parish. And when she is evaluated by the state, they use a regular ed template. To judge kids who range from completely non verbal to savant level. I agree that raises should be based on merit, but the system needs some serious work before that can happen fairly.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:43 am to ShortyRob
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/24/20 at 12:52 pm
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:43 am to cahoots
I'd just like to point out that I happen to live in one of the best school districts in the South with its only 2 public high schools rated by US News among the top 100.
And our teacher pay scale is lower than EVERY district surrounding us.
And our teacher pay scale is lower than EVERY district surrounding us.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:47 am to ShortyRob
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/24/20 at 12:51 pm
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:48 am to Midget Death Squad
quote:
Our current method of standardized testing is crap. Teachers don't teach these kids anymore, because they are only teaching them how to pass these tests.
This is correct.
Merit based is a tricky strategy because the incentive can ultimately affect a child's education. Wish I knew the best methods but I don't.
We should group together the award-winning, experienced educators in the state and have them advise what makes sense if merit based. Sounds better than any politician assuming what is best
Posted on 10/28/19 at 11:50 am to cahoots
quote:I know you're OK with it, because you don't understand.
Grossly overpaid? C'mon man. There is so much waste in government that I am okay with giving art teachers a few more bucks if it means getting better calculus teachers. it's a good trade off
And, it ain't a few bucks. If all public schools folded tomorrow, a person qualified to teach advanced Calc would command more than double what a person with a fricking PhD in Art commanded.
quote:Your disagreement isn't based on reality. Yay. You know ONE district. So, I looked.
I just disagree with this.
Your top HS. 85% white, less than 10% black
Your 2nd. 85% white, less than 10% black
#3. 75% white, 16% black
#4. 59% white, 34% black
Shall I go on? LOL. You do have one school that's an anomaly but, that's just cause Greatschools now weights minority performance in it's overall rating and slightly downgraded a mostly white school where the minorities are doing exceptionally shitty. The white kids are still kicking arse in it.
This ain't complicated man. It's just something none of you on the left want to come to terms with.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 12:03 pm to RIPMachoMan
The bottom line is that if I can tell who the difference between an excellent teacher, an average one and a teacher that can't effectively teach children, then the admin and school board should DEFINITELY know.
All citizens (especially parents) should be hounding the school board to reward excellent teachers and to let go of the poor ones. When was the last time anyone in this thread went to a school board meeting? Or even know most or all of the members of the school board?
All citizens (especially parents) should be hounding the school board to reward excellent teachers and to let go of the poor ones. When was the last time anyone in this thread went to a school board meeting? Or even know most or all of the members of the school board?
Posted on 10/28/19 at 12:08 pm to cahoots
quote:It has the best students.........which is why it attracts the best teachers.
I think you might be misinterpreting what I am saying. Think of it this way - the best public school system in Louisiana also has the highest pay.
quote:Yeah. I know. That's my point.
However, it's also in a very safe and nice part of Louisiana. It continues to improve.
quote:And, that is done ALL OVER THE NATION..........with literally zero measurable results.
So, in order to get teachers to go to schools that aren't in safe and nice parts, you have to pay them MORE than that district, not less.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 12:21 pm to cahoots
quote:
Like I said before, the catholic school system in new orleans is unique.
Agree.
But that’s because New Orleans was not English. Spaniards and Frenchies did not allow the public to raise their children.
quote:
This is due in part to the nuns and brothers who ran the schools for many years and huge alum donations. They were basically giving themselves up for the schools and many alums kinda do the same now. It's a respectable way to educate the community but it's not really something that can be duplicated or used as a basis for comparison to a good public school system. It's almost partly like a charity in some ways.
This is also true.
But this was the case at every Catholic school and many private schools through out the land. But now this system is under assault. There are less nuns and brothers since the reforms embracing worldliness of the 60s. The average middle class income has been stagnant or down until the last few years. The middle class tax burden has been rising for state, local, and federal governments for decades.
quote:
The Bensons basically built an entire new building for Dominican, for example. It's not funded by tuition.
Also true!
But, Sandra Bullock strongly backs Warren Easton, and Rex and Zulu back McDonogh 35 and New Orleans Military and Maritime Academy.
But this is chump change compared to tax dollars.
The issue isn’t that the tax money is insufficient. The issue is that tax dollars are being squandered for purposes other than actually educating children. This OP originally was based on wasting less taxes on across the board teacher pay raises by basing pay increases to merit. This is important!
BUT, for real teaching improvement, we need to increase competition. Like the the GI Bill Education plan, the cash should be linked to the student not the school. The parents should be allowed to seek enrollment of their choice of public, private, and parochial. And IF the school accepts them the public tuition money goes to the school. Any not covered tuition is the families responsibility. Or charity.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 12:25 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:
But there is that moral thing.
quote:
But the school culture as a whole is better where God CAN and is mentioned.
I will never, ever, ever criticize someone who wants their child to have a religious education.
But understand that something has to generally be sacrificed in order to make that happen.
Case in point. The local Catholic elementary school goes from 745 am - 300 pm, this includes a 15 minute morning assembly / prayer session.
Our public elementary school goes from 830 am - 330 pm
So, if the instructional time is the same at both schools, and you have to have religion class in the Catholic school, then something is being cut out to give time for that.
I may be jaded. I saw terrible teachers in the catholic elementary school my child attended, my kid got straight A's and was never challenged, and struggled academically. to adjust to the "regular" classes when she switched to a public elementary school. We had to hire her a tutor to teach all the stuff that the public 2nd grade taught that the catholic 2nd grade didn't teach. She caught up, but it was an eye-opening experience.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 12:30 pm to El Segundo Guy
quote:
The bottom line is that if I can tell who the difference between an excellent teacher, an average one and a teacher that can't effectively teach children, then the admin and school board should DEFINITELY know.
Trust me, they know, but no one wants to do the documentation / paperwork needed to "non-renew" anyone, much less, fire them.
quote:
When was the last time anyone in this thread went to a school board meeting? Or even know most or all of the members of the school board?
In our recent election, 9 out of 11 positions, the incumbent was unchallenged. The 10th, the incumbent was appointed mid-term, so this was his first actual election. The 11th, didn't run for re-election.
One of my former neighbors is on the school board (same school district, different voting district). Talking with her about stuff, it's been a crazy experience. The school board has little say over anything except approving budgets and hiring the superintendent.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 12:35 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:
The parents should be allowed to seek enrollment of their choice of public, private, and parochial. And IF the school accepts them the public tuition money goes to the school. Any not covered tuition is the families responsibility. Or charity.
I would support a wide expansion of this, if only one policy were approved.
Subject those private schools that receive public tuition dollars, to the same accountability / grading scheme, as the public schools do.
If a school receives state tuition dollars, it should be subject to state accountability measures.
If the private school doesn't like that... they don't have to accept the state tuition money.
I would stop short of saying the state has the ability to approve / not approve a school. The accountability measures would be for parental information only.
I know this will get some downvotes.
Posted on 10/28/19 at 12:37 pm to ShortyRob
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/24/20 at 12:51 pm
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