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re: Tariffs on importers from China going to 25% Friday, apparently
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:08 pm to 90proofprofessional
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:08 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
those jobs that left the US to go to China are just going elsewhere in SE asia, not back to the US
I agree for the most part. However, manufacturing jobs that have a high degree of tech or those where a high level of quality is of utmost importance can be tied to decent jobs. In short, the low paying wage stuff wouldn't work here so it doesn't matter if China has those jobs or they go to some even poorer nation. These other jobs (Steel, next gen robotics, high tech ag) are important for our future imho. China was gutting these industries. Now...we will see. Maybe Trump is horribly wrong on this, but I don't think that is the case. Simply put, China, and the evergrowing issues as they related to them, had to be addressed.
1
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:12 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:I would be curious to see how many people found the “learn to code” meme targeting recently fired journalists funny (and true), but get upset when people argue that those who worked manufacturing jobs should find a new skill or field because those jobs are not as in demand or valuable as they once were.
I see no reason these folks can't at least learn to be semi skilled and find a job in other sectors. Of course it takes some initiative.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:19 pm to jimmy the leg
quote:Sure. As a job becomes more advanced, the requirements to do that job often become more advanced as well.
However, manufacturing jobs that have a high degree of tech or those where a high level of quality is of utmost importance can be tied to decent jobs.
quote:I mean China only represented like 1% of the steel used in the states, and the vast majority (like 3/4ths) came from domestic steel. So it’s been strange that one of the most popular examples argued China gutting a US industry, is probably one of the worst examples in reality.
These other jobs (Steel, next gen robotics, high tech ag) are important for our future imho. China was gutting these industries.
And besides, while China may have taken advantage of low-skilled labor better than anyone else, this: 1. too often ignores the reality that someone else other than the US would likely just take its place, 2. ignores the fact that having the world’s largest population makes this a likely result anyways.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:19 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:says mr gdp.
incoherent as always
quote:i'm saying what difference does it make? trump is trying to get the us involved in fair trade on the world stage. he just wants it to be fair. saying there's a difference is just semantics. well, par for the course for you. you're blabbering on about the academic difference between kinds of contracts for political reasons (i.e. tds).
unless you think "talking about the need" to be trade partners with 2 individual countries counts as a multilateral deal
quote:yeah, it's noticeable. ib has stated in plain language he doesn't care about ip theft. you all will when some us invention is used by the chini military against the us.
i'm not trying to "protect" anyone
quote:trump derangement syndrome
certain businesses and a small minority of workers at the expense of consumers
quote:
what?
ok so you trolled me. good one. let me know if you ever have a substantive response to the MAIN POINT OF THE WHOLE DISCUSSION quote:that a trade war is going on. no one is surprised by this and i said it will get worse before it gets better. but that is NOT a reason to continue to stupidly let the chinese steal our stuff and use it against us. that is just idiotic at the highest levels. ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce you to npc 90proof
what do you think the marked deceleration in both imports and exports following the ramp-up of our tariffs & the subsequent retaliation means then?
quote:you and ib are so freaking obtuse. there is a roadblock to fair trade that trump is trying to eliminate. i'm sorry you don't understand this. it's been explained to you eleventy billion times
not if you actually think trade is good
quote:wait, this months long temper tantrum is just based on your vapid prognostications? your whole position is derived from the puny brain of one of the dumbest posters on this board? oh my gosh. you are a monumental waste of space. you have no idea what's going to happen MR FRED GRAPH
our unilateral game of chicken is going to result in more barriers and less trade
quote:the articles are still there
correct, you didn't
quote:multiple people in that thread were telling you the same thing so "we all" is just bluster.
we all know you won't
quote:
i posted as many *anecdotes* as you did
delusional. let's see you tally it up. go ahead. go back to the thread and count them up. quote:which i satisfied by citing multiple articles on the subject. if you're scared, just say you're scared. right now, go pull some data from the articles. you won't. you tried one time and it freaking backfired spectacularly
the burden of proof, or at minimum some kind of decent evidence, remains on you
quote:you mean by doing something like citing articles from industry observers? wouldn't that be interesting
it would be such an easy claim to support!
quote:so you have no substantive response. that's all you had to say.
you typed a bunch of the same old NPC orange man bad stuff y'all always say
quote:this is precisely the kind of spineless response i would expect from someone who is out of intellectual ammunition.
you just asserted it while stomping your feet like a bitch on the rag
you're not even TRYING to interact on the issue. look up the word blithe. then, if you actually understand how wrong you are, go pull a quote from my response and tell me specifically how it's wrong. I DARE YOU. let's see you zhe up. otherwise, just keep on with your stupid histrionics. quote:"no you didn't" 90proof. so all the people at high levels of american economy who talk about it are, what? just making it up and you figured out differently all on your own from the comfort of your keyboard. you seriously need medication
the weak-arse IP theft fig leaf
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:31 pm to bfniii
The fact that your response to this:
And frankly, while 90proof gets a lot of hate on here, you seem to take it to another level, yet you appear to be extremely ignorant about the topics you base your attacks upon. So 90proof may be extremely biased, but you’re just as biased, but appear far less knowledgeable about the topic.
quote:was this:
certain businesses and a small minority of workers at the expense of consumers
quote:shows that you have little regard for, and/or knowledge about, the issues and implications related to this topic.
trump derangement syndrome
And frankly, while 90proof gets a lot of hate on here, you seem to take it to another level, yet you appear to be extremely ignorant about the topics you base your attacks upon. So 90proof may be extremely biased, but you’re just as biased, but appear far less knowledgeable about the topic.
This post was edited on 5/6/19 at 10:36 pm
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:44 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:Good lord you are a complete idiot, aren't you?
about what
how IP theft has displaced muh manufacturing jerbs as the justification for unilaterally starting a trade war with china?
or how the people who bought into that vision have nothing material to gain from whatever IP protection we think we're about to get?
Newsflash: YOU PAY FOR THEFT!
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:48 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:Yet, US unemployment now stands at record lows? Really odd. Where'd all those jobs come from?
but those jobs that left the US to go to China are just going elsewhere in SE asia, not back to the US
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:51 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:Compared to the 90p posts I just responded to, I don't know if your suggestion is even possible.
but appear far less knowledgeable about the topic
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:51 pm to bfniii
quote:Well he may be referring to the fact that a lot of the theft is a result of businesses decision to play by their rules, when they know the consequences. While obviously it’s a huge market that business want to capture, but if they deem that more as more important than the well-known consequences, it seems a bit disingenuous to complain about those consequences when they inevitably happen.
so all the people at high levels of american economy who talk about it are, what?
In addition, a lot of accusations of “IP theft” in general (not specific to China at all) are often extremely ridiculous. Just look examples of companies using algorithms to flag for things in YouTube videos, and complain some copyright on the video, even though they would fall under “Fair Use.” Nintendo is one company that has a ton of examples of this.
There are even examples of companies flagging music in the background as the user walks by some public place that was playing the music.
Since IP theft is often (or usually) a lot more complex and ambiguous, than “traditional theft,” it appears that people use those complexity and ambiguities to make questionable or even outright dishonest accusations for their own self-serving interests.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:55 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:90% of Microsoft materials in China are pirated. There is nothing ambiguous about that.
Since IP theft is often (or usually) a lot more complex and ambiguous, than “traditional theft,” it appears that people use those complexity and ambiguities to make questionable or even outright dishonest accusations for their own self-serving interests.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:56 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:While 90proof does like to troll, and the criticism if that are fair game, but when he’s not trolling, he does post a lot of substantive, objective, and empirically-supported information.
Compared to the 90p posts I just responded to, I don't know if your suggestion is even possible.
The problem I see is that the responses to the substance are indistinguishable from the the responses to him trolling. In fact, I’ve seen a lot of posters insult him and make accusations that he’s avoided a topic about an economic issue or data that was released, when he had not only discusses that topic, he was insulted in that topic as well.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:01 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
While 90proof does like to troll
quote:Trolling simply implies deliberate rather than accidental stupidity. Is willful stupidity somehow more admirable? IMO, willful stupidity aka "trolling" is actually worse than the accidental variety.
the responses to the substance are indistinguishable from the the responses to him trolling
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:12 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:And apparently they’ve decided to change their model a bit over the last decade and now they’re back to dominating again after Ballmer left. Here is a story from 2015:
90% of Microsoft materials in China are pirated. There is nothing ambiguous about that.
Microsoft is giving software pirates free copies of Windows 10
quote:But regardless, I think this is actually a prime example of why it’s more complex and ambiguous than just “traditional theft.” Here is Obama’s comment about IP theft from 2011,
those upgrades will be extended even to those with illegal versions of the software—at least in China.
where he specially addresses Ballmer’s complaints about IP theft and where 90% figure comes from:
90% of Microsoft customers in China using pirated software
quote:So by this standard, if someone bought software, and gave the software THEY BOUGHT to a friend, then that friend would be “stealing,” by this standard. I know Microsoft has (or had) put things in place so one can only use it with a specific code that could only be used once; however, if Jon Doe is able to successfully use his friend’s software that his friend bought and his friend gave him, is Jon Doe really a thief?
and Steve Ballmer of Microsoft pointed out that their estimate is that only 1 customer in every 10 of their products is actually paying for it in China.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:21 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:No I said he deserves the criticism for it, and my issue is that when he posts something substantive, the responses are largely insults and accusations. In my opinion, ignoring substantive information to insult the messenger is willful stupidity as well.
Is willful stupidity somehow more admirable?
And I think a lot of the trolling, not just from him, is a direct result of posters making good-faith, substantive posts and/or threads, with responses that are largely (or even exclusively) just insults aimed at the poster because the topic is counter to the board’s views or the poster is seen as someone who has a different partisan perspective.
So if someone is insulted for posting something of substance, then what purpose is there to post substance?
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:55 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:Presumably one simply directs the response to the legitimate substance and away from the personal derision. In the process, substance takes care of itself.
if someone is insulted for posting something of substance, then what purpose is there to post substance?
In contrast, claims that widespread theft doesn't impact honest consumers and/or employees are claims which lack any substance at all. There is no legitimate position to redirect toward. When one doubles down on such an argument, as was done here, it is an invitation to be the butt of the joke -- a laughing stock.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:56 pm to buckeye_vol
Oh no... IB, 90, and a few others have zero ability to reason on the subject.
I mean none. They repeat and rinse and repeat and rinse.... It's the same over and over.
IB has admitted that he purchases from China, and it has hurt him. HE is not the whole of the USA. So I will say it again, Tell the people that now have jobs, peole that have wage growth that they should be mad as hall that they are paying $6 dollars more per year for a washing machine when they got:
- Tax cut
- 3.2% wage increase
- 1.6% inflation
- and an ACTUAL job
You go ask them if they are ok with the trade off.
This isn't hard.
I mean none. They repeat and rinse and repeat and rinse.... It's the same over and over.
IB has admitted that he purchases from China, and it has hurt him. HE is not the whole of the USA. So I will say it again, Tell the people that now have jobs, peole that have wage growth that they should be mad as hall that they are paying $6 dollars more per year for a washing machine when they got:
- Tax cut
- 3.2% wage increase
- 1.6% inflation
- and an ACTUAL job
You go ask them if they are ok with the trade off.
This isn't hard.
Posted on 5/7/19 at 5:23 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Good lord you are a complete idiot, aren't you?
Newsflash: YOU PAY FOR THEFT!
i guess to the extent i have IP they're stealing that i would be making money off of? you gonna explain the connection between this and the "average worker", or just pound the table like you always do?
Posted on 5/7/19 at 5:24 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
Yet, US unemployment now stands at record lows? Really odd. Where'd all those jobs come from?
you got evidence that any of these particular jobs came from china after having left the US?
Posted on 5/7/19 at 5:27 am to 90proofprofessional
quote:You mean as opposed to a "magic wand"?
you got evidence that any of these particular jobs came from china after having left the US?
Posted on 5/7/19 at 5:31 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
90% of Microsoft materials in China are pirated. There is nothing ambiguous about that.
protecting all those jobs for software engineers, supply chain managers, and operations management bros sure didn't seem like the point of the trade war, or the populist swelling among the rust belt & south. if it had been, wow how strange that we initiated it by taxing imports of primary metals & laundry equipment
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