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Spin-off from Churchill thread "Great Men Theory"
Posted on 9/8/24 at 1:45 pm
Posted on 9/8/24 at 1:45 pm
Not really specific to Churchill or WW2.
But in general, history is filled with flawed men who were remembered for certain actions that they may or may not even deserve credit for, but nonetheless society's will accept these tales and myths and even celebrate them.
It's good for comradery, unity, national pride. This is all fine when the country is delivering for the people, they will go along with the myths and hold them up. When the country stops delivering and representing the people, they will begin calling into question the history they have been fed since youth.
People are questioning the entire post-war liberal world order and everything it represents, and the end of national sovereignty in the west. It was only natural that the old WW2 myths and the Civil Rights era myths would eventually be called into question.
But in general, history is filled with flawed men who were remembered for certain actions that they may or may not even deserve credit for, but nonetheless society's will accept these tales and myths and even celebrate them.
It's good for comradery, unity, national pride. This is all fine when the country is delivering for the people, they will go along with the myths and hold them up. When the country stops delivering and representing the people, they will begin calling into question the history they have been fed since youth.
People are questioning the entire post-war liberal world order and everything it represents, and the end of national sovereignty in the west. It was only natural that the old WW2 myths and the Civil Rights era myths would eventually be called into question.
This post was edited on 9/8/24 at 2:29 pm
6
Posted on 9/8/24 at 2:01 pm to burger bearcat
This is correct. I said in the other thread I recognize the importance of national origin stories but that the United States has lost the right to use them as armor because of its foreign and domestic actions the past couple of decades.
They have no respect for me and I’ve lost nearly all respect for the government and institutions
They have no respect for me and I’ve lost nearly all respect for the government and institutions
Posted on 9/8/24 at 2:13 pm to OBReb6
quote:
They have no respect for me and I’ve lost nearly all respect for the government and institutions
Correct. But even still, when I go to a game I stand for the anthem. I still fly a flag at my house. Not out of respect for the American government, who I have great disdain for. But I want my kids to experience the feeling of national pride, when they get older they can learn more and come to their own conclusions. But I don't want them growing up to hate their country.
Lincoln is another historical figure who I have grown out of favor with. But I realize he is considered a national hero, and I am not going to start trashing his legacy in front of my kids for the dame reason I stand for the flag.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 2:21 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
But in general, history is filled with flawed men who were remembered for certain actions that they may or may not even deserve credit for, but nonetheless society's will accept these tales and myths and even celebrate them.
And then there’s Rudy Giuliani.
The subject of leadership books after 911, then hit the doghouse hard in every single thing he did after that.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 2:23 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
Correct. But even still, when I go to a game I stand for the anthem. I still fly a flag at my house. Not out of respect for the American government, who I have great disdain for. But I want my kids to experience the feeling of national pride, when they get older they can learn more and come to their own conclusions. But I don't want them growing up to hate their country.
Ditto
quote:
Lincoln is another historical figure who I have grown out of favor with. But I realize he is considered a national hero, and I am not going to start trashing his legacy in front of my kids for the dame reason I stand for the flag.
I grew up hating Abraham Lincoln, but my family has been in Mississippi for like 230+ years I had great grandparents that heard stories direct from the survivors back then and they were still very bitter about it.
This post was edited on 9/8/24 at 2:25 pm
Posted on 9/8/24 at 2:31 pm to burger bearcat
I lost interest in American history decades ago. It's just too short. Foreigners mock us for thinking '200 years ago is very old.' I spend a lot of time now on foreign history and especially ancient history. Americans should study that more and you'd find out how many times mistakes repeat themselves. But we still don't learn to avoid them.
I'm very proud that we have the oldest Constitution on the planet. And the Dems hate it.
I'm very proud that we have the oldest Constitution on the planet. And the Dems hate it.
This post was edited on 9/8/24 at 2:32 pm
Posted on 9/8/24 at 2:54 pm to Zach
Zach,
We have become masters of taking that foreign history and making it our own havent we.
The pony express. The romans, Kublai Khan, the Incas, all had delivery systems, but we think we invented it.
Our interstate system, as if the expression all roads lead to Rome is just that, an expression.
As far as leaders and their "myth" George Armstrong Custer was a slaughterer of native Americans, who lied repeatedly to them and then killed them. Speaking of "legends" they say his body was found with sticks in his ears, put there by native women who thought it might help him "hear better" in the next life.
We have become masters of taking that foreign history and making it our own havent we.
The pony express. The romans, Kublai Khan, the Incas, all had delivery systems, but we think we invented it.
Our interstate system, as if the expression all roads lead to Rome is just that, an expression.
As far as leaders and their "myth" George Armstrong Custer was a slaughterer of native Americans, who lied repeatedly to them and then killed them. Speaking of "legends" they say his body was found with sticks in his ears, put there by native women who thought it might help him "hear better" in the next life.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 3:03 pm to OBReb6
The Greatness of Robert E. Lee has been lost to the "Yankee Invaders", view of His Story.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 3:07 pm to burger bearcat
I love Tucker, but his interview with the pro-Hitler historian was retarded. The so-called historian was simply wrong. Churchill was a great man because of his resolve in confronting fascism and communism. Hitler and the Nazis were clearly the bad guys. To claim, suggest, or argue Churchill was the chief terrorist of the Second World War II is so absurd that it should be widely mocked and ridiculed.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 3:14 pm to trinidadtiger
quote:
The pony express. The romans, Kublai Khan, the Incas, all had delivery systems, but we think we invented it.
Yes, and this reminds me of FedX and UPS competing with the post office.
Private mail delivery to compete with the postal service was done in America in the late 1700s. It was great. It was made illegal. Why? Because the post master generals were appointed by our big city mayors as payback for campaign donations or they were the mayor's relatives. Some things never change in politics.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 3:59 pm to Riverside
quote:
Churchill was a great man because of his resolve in confronting fascism and communism
Posted on 9/8/24 at 4:13 pm to OBReb6
Facts are stubborn things, brother. I’d suggest watching the BBC’s WWII documentary from the 70s called The World at War. It might help you understand the rise of Nazism and the Hitler regime, and to understand why Daryl Cooper is so wrong.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 4:20 pm to LookSquirrel
Just because an articulate and well manicured person says something doesn’t make him correct or even intelligent.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 4:26 pm to OBReb6
I don't know why you are laughing at that statement. Churchill was very much opposed to the rise of Hitler throughout the 1930s but could do nothing about it because he wasn't in government at the time. So he made radio addresses and speeches warning the British people about the growing threat from Germany and that Britain should be re-arming as a deterrent to Germany's aggressive designs. He was one of only a handful of people who warned Chamberlain not to make a deal with Hitler at Munich as he would undoubtedly renege.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 4:31 pm to Riverside
quote:
BBC’s WWII documentary from the 70s
I have watched that, Excellent series and factual, to a degree.
However, it isn't what they present that's a problem for reaching a full understanding of the events of the time. It's the stuff they leave out.
Imagine if the same documentary was made from a German viewpoint.
There are some made lately that you may, or not find interesting.
One is "The Greatest Story Never Told"
and another is called "Europa".
LINK
Trigger warning. This is not meant to say I fully agree with any of them.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 4:36 pm to LookSquirrel
quote:
LookSquirrel
Can you give us the gist? Kinda looks like propaganda.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 4:36 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
He was one of only a handful of people who warned Chamberlain not to make a deal with Hitler at Munich as he would undoubtedly renege.
That right there is the problem. He didn't know for sure he would renege. Why not give peace a chance? If he doesn't honor the agreement, then get back at it.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 4:40 pm to LookSquirrel
I don’t think the majority of Germans understood the path Hitler would ultimately lead them down. But I don’t have much sympathy them either. The Nazis chose to wage the war to target civilians and with maximum brutality.
Instead of re-writing history on Churchill, I’d like people to take another look at FDR’s decisions at the end of the war in 1945. A persuasive argument can be made that FDR’s blindspot for Stalin’s ambitions led to the Cold War and the rise of the Soviet Union. Churchill tried to warn FDR about this but he wouldn’t listen.
Instead of re-writing history on Churchill, I’d like people to take another look at FDR’s decisions at the end of the war in 1945. A persuasive argument can be made that FDR’s blindspot for Stalin’s ambitions led to the Cold War and the rise of the Soviet Union. Churchill tried to warn FDR about this but he wouldn’t listen.
Posted on 9/8/24 at 4:42 pm to LookSquirrel
quote:
That right there is the problem. He didn't know for sure he would renege. Why not give peace a chance?
Why didn’t Heir Hitler just obey the Munich Accord where he was given the Sudetenland?
Also, Mr. Churchill didn’t become PM until May 1940. The UK declared war in September 1939. So you have the facts totally wrong.
This post was edited on 9/8/24 at 4:44 pm
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