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re: South Africa spin off thread: the legacy of Rhodesia.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 6:41 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Posted on 2/28/18 at 6:41 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
One wonders what rhodesia would like today if Ian Smith’s descendants and his (racist) party still held power.
Well the boom in the Rhodesian economy was mitigated by economic sanctions, and GDP growth effectively flatlined after the 1975 sanctions were put in place. Zambia, which was once Northern Rhodesia, had similar GDP numbers until the price of its chief export, copper, declined in the 1970's, and government borrowing increased. After the new government was installed in Zimbabwe, the GDP increased from 5.1 billion to 8.5 billion in 1982, and saw growth of 11 percent through the 80's, especially after 1985.
Zambia, under a one party state from 1972 to 1991, struggled with high foreign debt, an inability to export copper, and struggling state industries until 2000, when Frederick Chiluba introduced market reforms, which increased the GDP from 4 billion in 2000 to 20 billion now. Zambia also did not have the advantages that Rhodesia did in terms of its manufacturing sector, which had more development from the colonial era. Zambia received much more investment in mining during the colonial era, and had little in the way of any other industries.
The similar population demographics between Zambia and Zimbabwe make for an interesting comparison. Since reforms made in the Zambian economy, and the sale of key nationalized assets, the Zambia economy has grown while the Zimbabwean economy has contracted, and Zambia has been relatively peaceful since its founding. I think that Zimbabwe would look similar to Zambia now if the Rhodesian front had remained in power, absent of sanctions. The political turmoil of post-2000 Zimbabwe is a major cause of their issues, and the relative peacefulness of Zambia in relation gives a good guide to how a country with similar history and demographics would be now.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 7:12 pm to crazy4lsu
Why are you so smart and educated about everything???
Posted on 2/28/18 at 7:57 pm to crazy4lsu
Are you being sarcastic? I honestly can't tell.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 7:57 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:01 pm to crazy4lsu
You seem so educated on so many topics, especially foreign stuff
No sarcasm at all.
No sarcasm at all.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:16 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
They could not vote or hold high public offices. That alone is worth rich derision
I'm 95% certain that this isn't true. Smith didn't believe in universal suffrage, no, because he didn't think the vast majority of the country was capable of responsible exercise. He was correct.
But blacks were eligible to vote and hold office- provided certain tests and metrics were met, such as literacy, tax payment, land ownership, etc. There's a YouTube video of Smith explaining this system to the BBC World Service, IIRC.
That Rhodesia didn't follow strict apartheid, along with the British heritage of the government, were a source of contention between Zuid Afrika and the Rhodesians. They were much looser allies than you'd think. As many ethnic/tribal conflicts as the black Africans had, the white Africans nearly matched them.
If you want to be nostalgic for a time and place in which you didn't live, search for videos of Salisbury. It's fascinating.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:21 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
I just read a lot. I mostly comment on topics relevant to my interests, among which post-colonial history is one.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:52 pm to crazy4lsu
You must have quite a book stack at your house
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:04 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
About 1200 books between my home here and my dad's house. I've moved to PDF's of lots of them because I keep losing books and then rebuying them.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:04 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
The country was truly the breadbasket of Africa, and the high productivity allowed to a generous social welfare system including healthcare and education that even blacks were entitled to.
One wonders what rhodesia would like today if Ian Smith’s descendants and his (racist) party still held power.
Political rights are worth more in long run than economic comfort, but I think Mugabe went way too far in testing down the economic structure that white settlers built there
So we are supposed to believe it's better to have a failing, violent criminal state that's ostensibly "not racist" than a successful, violent criminal state that is "racists"?
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:12 pm to crazy4lsu
Yea that was one thing I was going to mention: Zimbabwe didn’t get bad until after 2000 thanks largely to Mugabe’s misadventures in the Congo.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 10:11 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
Political rights are worth more in long run than economic comfort, but I think Mugabe went way too far in testing down the economic structure that white settlers built there
That depends. The blacks always had political rights...because they outnumbered whites and could kick them out at any time...which they eventually did. At some point they(probably fewer than youd think) decided it was worth risking the gravy train to take over. Looks like it was a bad bet
Posted on 2/28/18 at 11:05 pm to bamafan1001
This thread got me wondering: have any of you met a rhodesian immigrant before?
Something like 250,000 whites left the country between 1980 and present day.
I am sure some came here to America.
Something like 250,000 whites left the country between 1980 and present day.
I am sure some came here to America.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 12:57 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
This thread got me wondering: have any of you met a rhodesian immigrant before?
A friend of mine was born in South Africa to Rhodesian parents. They saw the writing on the wall and moved to Vancouver in the early '80s when she was a toddler. Lovely, hard-working people.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 5:19 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
thread got me wondering: have any of you met a rhodesian immigrant before?
Co worker, he has interesting stories and opinions.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:43 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
This thread got me wondering: have any of you met a rhodesian immigrant before?
A lot of them moved to ZA, such as Ian Smith and his family. Others moved to Kenya and Botswana. Few made it to the US, as there was animosity with how the Carter administration (and notably Andrew Young) hung them out to dry.
I'd heard an Australian call the Rhodesian expats WhenWes, because every other sentence started with "When we were in Rhodesia..."
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 7:52 am
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:44 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Africa became a shite hole once they ran the Europeans out.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:55 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
t I think Mugabe went way too far in testing down the economic structure that white settlers built there
His soldiers executed my ex-girlfriend's grandparents for their farmland. That's a little too far for me.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 8:08 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Democracy is the God that failed.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 8:09 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
I remember hearing a Rhodesian doing talk radio back in the 90s/early 2000's. His first name was Robby, can't remember the last name.
ETA Robby Noel
ETA Robby Noel
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 8:11 am
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